PDA

View Full Version : normal season resumed


andy32uk
25.10.2011, 11:12 PM
QB dismal..check
Starting RB out..check
Moss out 5-7 weeks...check
Cooley injured...check
Defense struggling..check

yup another dismal season of snyder led football!!!

ArtMonk81
26.10.2011, 12:06 AM
I dont know how you summise that the defence is struggling, I thought they were doing pretty well.
Everything else I agree with!

my_friend_goo
26.10.2011, 11:54 AM
So, what did you seriously expect? We knew the quarterback situation was not ideal before the season began. Who out of the free agent QBs was going to fix the problem? As for rookies, there were plenty of question marks over all of them and even though some (e.g. Cam Newton) have succeeded, what makes you think they would have done so here, given the lack of playmakers and thin offensive line depth? John Beck actually played ok on Sunday. Not great, but ok. Rex Grossman reverted to form once teams recognised that he can't throw to the sidelines and took away his options over the middle. This was evident in the preaseason, just took a while for people to catch on. But that's a fatal deficiency in his play. Barring a similar deficiency in Beck, or a catastrophe (in the shape of performance or injury), he will be on the bench for the rest of the season. Jury's still out on Beck and it will take at least another 4 games to get an idea about him (took 5 games in total to confirm what we knew about Rex).

Without doubt, the biggest, most glaring problem on the team was the defense last season and many of the offseason moves focused on fixing that. It's just not possible to strengthen an entire weak roster in one offseason. So far, the defense has definitely improved. They're not consistent yet. There's still a few questions over the line, but they seem to be improved over last season, all the same. Ryan Kerrigan has become a bit anonymous the last few weeks, but he's a rookie and should improve. The worst performance they have put in this season has been against the Panthers, with the Eagles second, but they allowed fewer points against them. But, both have been tearing up defenses and in the former case, it doesn't take much to determine that the loss of Atogwe hurt badly (again, you can't completely restock starters and solid depth at all positions in one season).

As for the draft, it looked fairly solid, but nobody in the NFL is anybody until they get on the field and prove themselves. Jarvis Jenkins looked promising if raw during the preseason and he may have helped the D-line had he not been injured. But he still needs time to develop into a better player. Dejon Gomes similarly. Either player could succeed or amount to nothing. It's far too early to pin your hopes on them or write them off.

The offensive rookies have not been able to get themselves much playing time, but that looks set to change. Moss is out and Gaffney has been alright as a possession guy, but nothing more. I'm hoping his contribution is dialled back a bit (not too much though) and Armstrong, Paul and Hankerson are given their playing time to see what they can do. May not make much of a difference, but even then in the case of Paul and Hankerson, it's still early in their careers.

The one thing that did disappoint me over the offseason was that I would like to have seen more done on the O-line. With the injuries at present, I think they're going to struggle, affecting the whole offensive performance. This needs to be addressed (along with QB) in the upcoming draft and off-season. Even then, you can plug the rookies in, but it may still take time for them to develop so next year may not be much better.

But, if they hit more often than not in the past draft and the upcoming draft, Shanahan and Allen may well have laid the foundations for a successful team. It hurts me as much as it does you to see the team the way they are, but there's still 10 games to go and with increased experience, I hope they will get better. Considering the deep-rooted rot that affected this team, it's going to take time to fix (quick fixes rarely result in long-term success). I still remain optimistic, but for the future. Ultimately, the plan may fail, but as of now I have few qualms with the way they have operated in building a team - correctly judging college talent for their NFL potential is a difficult and inaccurate task so who knows what the outcome will be.

70 chip
26.10.2011, 01:36 PM
The problem with this team that is the most crucial and has been for several seasons is the offensive line, and we are going back to when Samuels got hurt, Jansen & Thomas retired etc. They haven't fixed it before and they haven't fixed it now. Factor in two journeyman QBs and a several other medium to major issues and you have the 2011 Redskins.

I think the OP is entitled to his opinion and the problem is the Skins flattered to deceive over the opening few weeks before falling away to 3-3. I had the team at 7-9 at best prior to the season and would stick with that now.

The issue that Goo raises with the defense is correct, we had a poor defense with 4-3 personnel trying to play 3-4 and props to Allen and Shanahan for getting things done in the preseason. The linebacker corps for me is a real shining star. It won't take a lot more to turn this unit into a perennial playoff quality outfit.

Most of the problems are on offense, and effectively the front office are looking at getting in quality players across several positions before the team will progress, starting at a franchise QB and 3 OL. Again the preseason will be key next year both in terms of the draft and FA acquisitions.

Forget the playoffs this year guys, if Allen & Shanahan get things right on offense they maybe we will be off to the playoffs next year

poor_slins
30.10.2011, 06:33 PM
For me I am more optimistic, I think we have some genuine stand out players on offense and defense. While this season may well end as a narrow losing one I honestly think that we are building something good. The most frustaing thing over the last few seasons has been our ability to self destruct with blown 3rd down conversions, stupid penalties and careless turnovers. IF we can stop that then there is enough flare to make plays.

Hail!!!

70 chip
30.10.2011, 10:01 PM
6 sacks and through 2 1/2 quarters 68 yards of offense

We don't have any standouts on offense in my opinion slins.

Cooley & Moss used to be but aren't anymore, QB play is a disaster and as for the offensive line see my post above !!!!

wuds100
30.10.2011, 11:36 PM
If it does not work out then nothing ventured nothing gained,
If we don't secure Luck then in three years we could be having the same conversations.

my_friend_goo
30.10.2011, 11:43 PM
If it does not work out then nothing ventured nothing gained,
If we don't secure Luck then in three years we could be having the same conversations.

I am not. Apparently, there are other quarterbacks out there in the upcoming draft...

The team clearly needs to spend as many picks as possible addressing the offense. Particularly the line. Giving it all up for Luck just leaves them with the same problems.

The rapid decline of the Skins these past three weeks has been sickening. They showed some promise early on, but it's been drained out of them. They sure need an almighty kick up the backside, because the season isn't going to get any easier and it's already ugly enough.

wuds100
31.10.2011, 01:22 AM
I am not. Apparently, there are other quarterbacks out there in the upcoming draft...

The team clearly needs to spend as many picks as possible addressing the offense. Particularly the line. Giving it all up for Luck just leaves them with the same problems.

The rapid decline of the Skins these past three weeks has been sickening. They showed some promise early on, but it's been drained out of them. They sure need an almighty kick up the backside, because the season isn't going to get any easier and it's already ugly enough.

Do you not think that a QB that gets the ball out quick and reads coverages better with also the added threat of beating you with his legs upgrades all aspects of this team.

my_friend_goo
31.10.2011, 12:57 PM
Do you not think that a QB that gets the ball out quick and reads coverages better with also the added threat of beating you with his legs upgrades all aspects of this team.

I'm not denying that a QB like that would be a huge upgrade to the team (and if Luck is just that at NFL level, then he's going to be hot property. But, his effectiveness will be limited by his line and WR corps.

Going on the opening day roster, the Redskins arguably had three useable linemen. Now, one of those is definitely out for the season, another will miss a significant amount of time. Trent Williams should be holding position at left tackle, but replaced and shifted to right tackle as soon as a better option can be obtained. Ideally, Kory Lichtensteiger and Will Montgomery would be reliable backups, but you could get away with one or both of them in there with two other stud lineman (one tackle, one guard). It's clear that the offensive line is as much of a problem as it always has been.

In order to obtain Eli Manning, in other words to move up from fourth to first place, the Giants had to give up their first and third round picks that year, as well as their first and fifth the following year (in essence - obviously there was a player switch involved). So, if the Redskins don't end up picking first, second or third overall, assume that's a starting point for any team willing to accept a trade. Considering other struggling teams, Indianapolis and Miami are going to be looking for a franchise quarterback and are going to firstly need a preferred back-up plan to Luck to the extent that they're prepared to give up his rights. They'll want as many picks as possible to address other areas of the team, too.

It could (and probably will) take significantly more than the Manning trade to acquire Luck. That leaves the Redskins with fewer options to upgrade the players around him not only immediately, but the following year, too. Players you want to be young guys that can grow around him. Don't forget - Shanahan only signed a five year contract, if it isn't headed in the right direction by the end of season four (I'm going to take a risk here and say he's given that long), I doubt he'll get the fifth.

If the Redskins find themselves in a top 5 or even top 10 position and have a quarteback they can acquire without mortgaging their future, I'd rather they took that option.

70 chip
31.10.2011, 02:26 PM
You are absolutely right goo. If we had a football team that was 3/4 of the way there and the only major component missing was a top grade QB, then I would be happy with Allen trading the house in exchange for Luck.

The truth is, we aren't anywhere close to being a 3/4 team. As have been discussed several times in this thread we are short of several major components on offense (and a far smaller number on defense). We simply cant trade everything away to move up for Luck, it is much more sensible to get another decent prospect in the position we are in along with either drafting some high graded offensive line prospects or signing some experienced guys in FA (or possibly trading for some).

You simply cant plug a QB into an offense with dreadful o-line play, a #26 ranked run game and an indifferent set of receivers and expect results, it simply wont happen. I know from my own OC experience that unless you have an effective offensive line you will not have success on offense, period.

wuds100
01.11.2011, 05:48 AM
I just think at this point we are in essence three years away from something,
If in three years we have developed a stud O-Line and found a franchise QB then happy days,
But if in three years we are 7-10 win team unable to win in the playoffs because we can't shift the ball
through the air then our progress will have been minimal,
This is a passing league and a QB like Luck should have a good 12-15 years in him,
I get the notion that he could be crocked on his first snap and a huge sacrifice would look stupid
but franchise QBs like him hardly ever come around.

70 chip
01.11.2011, 03:50 PM
To be honest I understand where you are coming from Wuds, my heart says I would love to see him in DC but my head says fix the O-line etc first.

Will be interesting to see how the rest of the season pans out and what happens !

my_friend_goo
01.11.2011, 05:52 PM
I know exactly why you're saying this, but unless the Redskins get a bargain-of-the-century (possibly of all time), trade, I just can't agree with it.

How do you intend to establish a top-calibre NFL offensive line in three years time if you have to give away most of the top picks for the first two of those years?

If Andrew Luck was the only NFL starter coming out in the draft, then it might be a different manner. But he's not. Joe Gibbs' teams made it to four superbowls with inconsistent quarterbacks who played their best football in those seasons only. I know the NFL is a different place today, but a well-stocked team can still make it all the way with a great, if not elite, quarterback.

my_friend_goo
01.11.2011, 11:09 PM
I'm going to post this article here as we're getting involved in a quarterback discussion:

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/10/31/2528355/a-look-at-all-9-sacks-by-the-bills-against-the-redskins

Now, I don't know the author's credentials, but if he's making a good judgement here and is right more often than not, it does go to show somewhat that a quarterback with good vision and quick decision making can do to improve a team, especially if the o-line isn't giving him as much help as he needs.

I'd like to point out that this is supportive of Wuds' argument. However, I still stand by the belief that if any of the other quarterbacks coming out can provide that, it's better to keep the picks and improve the team as much as possible.

wuds100
01.11.2011, 11:59 PM
The deal could probably depend on where we are picking,
The biggest player outside of Indy picking him right now appears to be the Dolphins,
I wouldn't be surprised to 5-6 teams throwing the farm at him with the Pats dark horses.

wuds100
02.11.2011, 12:03 AM
I'm going to post this article here as we're getting involved in a quarterback discussion:

http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/10/31/2528355/a-look-at-all-9-sacks-by-the-bills-against-the-redskins

Now, I don't know the author's credentials, but if he's making a good judgement here and is right more often than not, it does go to show somewhat that a quarterback with good vision and quick decision making can do to improve a team, especially if the o-line isn't giving him as much help as he needs.

I'd like to point out that this is supportive of Wuds' argument. However, I still stand by the belief that if any of the other quarterbacks coming out can provide that, it's better to keep the picks and improve the team as much as possible.

This guy UKredskin does this playbook thing every week,
He clearly must have some experience of playing the game giving his knowledge.

my_friend_goo
02.11.2011, 12:30 PM
The deal could probably depend on where we are picking,
The biggest player outside of Indy picking him right now appears to be the Dolphins,
I wouldn't be surprised to 5-6 teams throwing the farm at him with the Pats dark horses.

Which is why whoever picks first holds all the cards. If they don't want to trade away the rights to Luck, they won't. But if they think they can, still pick up a franchise QB (presuming it's not the rams picking first) and take a whole load of picks to boost their team, they can pretty much stretch potential suitors as far as they are willing to go because there will be so many of them.

The Redskins simply cannot afford to write off the first two years of a new quarterback's career because they couldn't draft any supporting talent for him because they had no picks.

70 chip
02.11.2011, 03:59 PM
This guy UKredskin does this playbook thing every week,
He clearly must have some experience of playing the game giving his knowledge.

He doesnt, he is just an informed spectator

I posted elsewhere that I enjoyed the article, which I did, but remember it is from a TV spectators viewpoint so don't take it as gospel take it as an enjoyable article which is food for thought.

What he or none of us know are the Skins blocking schemes, the checkdowns, if any routes were run incorrectly, if protections were not blocked as called etc etc (I could go on......). Furthermore (and I don't want it to sound like I am crucifying the guy as it is a nice piece of work) as a Quarterbacks coach I can tell you he makes a few completely unrealistic demands on Beck based on what he can see from his TV screen not what Beck can see or can be reasonably expected to be looking at.

Speaking for a coaches perspective if it was my offense I could read the article and say he is pretty much on the money OR I could say he is miles off as he is posting observations which bear no real relevance to what was called or should have happened.

Coming back to the Luck argument, as previously stated I don't think the Skins should trade up to take luck but to be honest it is all hypothetical as it will not happen. I think the front office will do the sensible thing and take a QB with our first pick without mortgaging the house to do so. Yes I would like to see him in DC but I am 99.99% certain he will end up somewhere else

wuds100
03.11.2011, 08:06 PM
Just to draw this out at little further,
Hypothetically if we are picking somewhere between 4-8 and Jones and Barkley
are on the board where do you guys stand on taking a QB in the first or would you be looking
to go O-Line and maybe take a prospect in the later rounds or a vet in FA.

70 chip
03.11.2011, 11:09 PM
QB first pick

O-line trade or FA (x3)

You never know, they made trade for a vet QB but I doubt it (and sincerely hope they dont)

marktaylor
04.11.2011, 12:31 PM
I can safely say that the Redskins team that "played" last week was the worst I've ever seen (and I've been watching since 1981)

worst offense ever

defense not much better (Fletcher excepted)

Riggo
04.11.2011, 02:58 PM
I was seriously hoping for an improvement to 9 wins, somehow.
After a 3-1 start it seemed realistic.

JD for breakfast
05.11.2011, 11:08 AM
I'm not down on our D. Our draft this year was heavy on D players (picks 1 and 2 went on defense) and as well as being talented, it's also a young unit so an upgrade or two aside, mainly at corner, and an eventual replacement for London Fletcher is all we need to invest there.

This off-season I'm expecting a similar draft strategy to what we saw this time round, except with the focus on the offense. Obviously offensive players are as a rule more difficult to predict coming out of college as the pro-style offense is so different, although less so in recent years

Were people expecting us to win the Super Bowl this year? Personally I thought our D was capable of getting us enough sneaky wins to maybe blag a play-off berth through a wild-card but nobody could have foreseen the injuries we'd get on offense

70 chip
05.11.2011, 12:35 PM
I don't think anyone is down on the D, but the offense is a train wreck that is going to need a heck of a lot more than than one draft to sort it out.

Even if you put the injured players back in, it is a seriously weak unit

JD for breakfast
06.11.2011, 07:34 PM
I'm not saying it will take just one draft, my point was that it's a re-building process and it will take time to correct the mistakes that have been made in the recent past. People need to be patient

Boltonian
06.11.2011, 10:06 PM
Our D deserve a medal, game after game( Panthers apart) they are keeping the
O in the game, but time after time the O keep coming up blank, can someone
who saw the game live please tell me if we threw a pass longer than 5 yards
before run after catch that is.

wuds100
06.11.2011, 10:50 PM
Our D deserve a medal, game after game( Panthers apart) they are keeping the
O in the game, but time after time the O keep coming up blank, can someone
who saw the game live please tell me if we threw a pass longer than 5 yards
before run after catch that is.

Beck got a few off when the game was up,
We just seem to look like a bad team with the bad habits of a bad team,
Personal foul by our franchise LT to stall a drive, turnover deep in our own territory before
the break, Banks fumbling a KO return at the 3 and countless missed tackles to name a few bad plays,
I know this team is rebuilding but I think we need a bigger turnover than we maybe first thought and
I would start with Banks being cut tomorrow.

fyodor dostoevsky
07.11.2011, 11:29 PM
I'm not convinced even our D is all that good. This isnt exactly a demanding schedule this season (Rams, Dolphins, Seahawks, Cardinals, 49rs some of these still to play) and teams of all ability are moving the ball and beating us. Yes I know, we cant win if we score no points obviously but our D has also over 60 minutes been outplayed at times. Even within the Division we were apparently facing a badly struggling Eagles team that kicked the crap out of us and we were poor on the road at Dullass.

wuds100
08.11.2011, 05:52 AM
I'm not convinced even our D is all that good. This isnt exactly a demanding schedule this season (Rams, Dolphins, Seahawks, Cardinals, 49rs some of these still to play) and teams of all ability are moving the ball and beating us. Yes I know, we cant win if we score no points obviously but our D has also over 60 minutes been outplayed at times. Even within the Division we were apparently facing a badly struggling Eagles team that kicked the crap out of us and we were poor on the road at Dullass.

I'm half and half on the D,
The front three are ok but not game changing and our secondary has been shocking,
I can't stand D Hall who seems to be ignored on so many bad plays where he is ball hawking,
There is no doubt that we have one of the best pass rushing tandems in the league and Fletch
continues to play out of his skin,
I also think the opposition are more relaxed knowing that they will probably get the ball back quickly
allowing them to gas the linemen and wear us down.