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Gengar 25.09.2009 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack1 (Post 974083)

Jobs would exsist if companies had less tax burdens, and there is a fair proportion of people who should not be on incapacity benifet.


I could go through point by point but I'd rather just start with this. You don't know anything about incapacity benefit, do you?

Facts about incapacity benefit
1) You have to be approved by two medical professionals to get on to IB, your own GP and a less qualified ATOS assessor appointed by the DSS. This second test is farmed out to private companies who, it seems, attempt to reject as many people as possible, regardless of their grounds for claiming. This creates a problem in that those not entitled to IB go back on to JSA, but many are so ill that they are unable to even look for work, meaning claiming JSA is fraudulent.
2) The form to apply for IB is 60+ pages long, many applicants have their first attempt rejected simply because the form is so complicated. This creates frustration both for the applicant and the jobcentre staff.
3) The net result of these two points was outlined in a government investigation into IB in about 2005 - the rate of fraud and erronous claims for IB is so low it's impossible to reliably measure - it's more likely that there are more people who are entitled to claim IB but are unable to or have been incorrectly turned down.

The DWP, under the 'guidance' of James Purnell, decided that one million people could get off of IB and back to work. Really? One million? Seems a bit of an arbitrary figure. Probably because it is. No employer is going to take on someone who's been out of work for years, in many cases decades, due to health concerns. And yet the govt plans to shove one million people off of IB and on to ESA, a glorified JSA. It's true that many IB claimants do want to work, it beats sitting around all day doing nothing. However many are just physically unable to fit into the rigid 9-5 job patterns which are a pre-requisite for most positions.

Even if this idea made the tiniest bit of sense, it's just not going to work on a practical level, not now and not for at least a few years. Look at the economy. There aren't 1m jobs to be filled and even if there were, there definitely aren't 1m jobs which are compatible with the impairments these people have, and if these magical jobs that anyone with a severe pain/physical impairment/mental health problem could just be slotted into actually existed, those people would be the last chosen to fill them by potential employers.

It's typical Labour spin nonsense. Government by press release. Figure out what people want, announce it, and then figure out if it works once you're half way there and you've spent hundreds of millions of pounds and thousands of man hours on it. Just like ID cards, except no one ever wanted those anyway.

Reforming IB is going to save very little - it's a kick in the teeth for the poorest and least able people in society. Here's a better idea, crack down on corporate tax fraud. Not avoidance (which is much higher, but legal), but the actual fraud, the bits are criminal. That adds up to over £10bn, more than ten times what benefit fraud costs - I bet there's no hotline where I can grass up naughty employers and no advertising campaign with sinister music in the background explaining that even just a little bit of fraud is a crime. Why is it only worthy of attention when the poorest in society do it?


BTW: About demeaning me, be as unpleasant as you like, I've heard it all before. If you do though, I have just one question, how old are you?

Gengar 25.09.2009 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack1 (Post 974083)

Some of your other points about "elites" boarder on conspiracy.

Who do you think benefits the most from war, and who loses the most?

Here's something you might want to check out before answering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptzml1qQvZE
(yes, it's a youtube link, usually I laugh at anyone who dares put up a youtube link to back up a point, but this is a fine piece of comedy, yet it contains all the relevant facts).

jack1 25.09.2009 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974155)
I could go through point by point but I'd rather just start with this. You don't know anything about incapacity benefit, do you?

Facts about incapacity benefit
1) You have to be approved by two medical professionals to get on to IB, your own GP and a less qualified ATOS assessor appointed by the DSS. This second test is farmed out to private companies who, it seems, attempt to reject as many people as possible, regardless of their grounds for claiming. This creates a problem in that those not entitled to IB go back on to JSA, but many are so ill that they are unable to even look for work, meaning claiming JSA is fraudulent.

That can hardly be a fact, what your saying is not nessecarily true is it?

Your claims are near impossible to back up.

Quote:

2) The form to apply for IB is 60+ pages long, many applicants have their first attempt rejected simply because the form is so complicated. This creates frustration both for the applicant and the jobcentre staff.
Well of course there should be less pages than that, and easy enough for anyone to understand.

Quote:

3) The net result of these two points was outlined in a government investigation into IB in about 2005 - the rate of fraud and erronous claims for IB is so low it's impossible to reliably measure - it's more likely that there are more people who are entitled to claim IB but are unable to or have been incorrectly turned down.
I would disagree with you there, although this is only my opinion there are alot of people who should be on JSA rather then IB as although they are disabled in some way they are perfectly fit to work.

Quote:

The DWP, under the 'guidance' of James Purnell, decided that one million people could get off of IB and back to work. Really? One million? Seems a bit of an arbitrary figure. Probably because it is. No employer is going to take on someone who's been out of work for years, in many cases decades, due to health concerns. And yet the govt plans to shove one million people off of IB and on to ESA, a glorified JSA. It's true that many IB claimants do want to work, it beats sitting around all day doing nothing. However many are just physically unable to fit into the rigid 9-5 job patterns which are a pre-requisite for most positions.
Well for once I agree with the government and I do believe it is possible to get alot of people on JSA back to work, it will however require them to do courses etc so that they have something else to put on there CV and thus increase the likelyhood of them being employed.


Quote:

Reforming IB is going to save very little - it's a kick in the teeth for the poorest and least able people in society. Here's a better idea, crack down on corporate tax fraud. Not avoidance (which is much higher, but legal), but the actual fraud, the bits are criminal. That adds up to over £10bn, more than ten times what benefit fraud costs - I bet there's no hotline where I can grass up naughty employers and no advertising campaign with sinister music in the background explaining that even just a little bit of fraud is a crime. Why is it only worthy of attention when the poorest in society do it?
Corporate fraud is of course wrong but at the same time so is benifet fraud, plus anyone can stop it with just a call, these ideas are attacking people who don't work, which is fair enough, as the vast majority of people can work in some way.

jack1 25.09.2009 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974160)
Who do you think benefits the most from war, and who loses the most?

Here's something you might want to check out before answering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptzml1qQvZE
(yes, it's a youtube link, usually I laugh at anyone who dares put up a youtube link to back up a point, but this is a fine piece of comedy, yet it contains all the relevant facts).

The people that benifet are the oil consumers those that loose out are the Iraqi people.

Raider12 25.09.2009 11:58 AM

Jack I would like to ask, have you had to go through the system for disability? I have and I am disabled and currently in the process of being retired from my job as I am no longer fit for that purpose. However I am not on benefits i.e JSA or IB. In fact I am not fit for any work so does that mean you are more qualified than the 4 consultants that I have had dealing with me and there opinion is no longer fit, but your opinion a lot of folk are??

"Although this is only my opinion there are alot of people who should be on JSA rather then IB as although they are disabled in some way they are perfectly fit to work."

I can back SA up on this matter, there are many forms returned as it is nigh on impossible to complete them properly as the form has so many questions, which does confuse people. Download the form and have a look.

I am all for folk working, and I would love to be able to work instead of being stuck at home, as a lot of disabled folk would like to do. So don't lump everyone together that is disabled with folk who are not fit, there is a big difference between the 2 definitions. You don't have a medical degree so you are not qualified to talk on Disability unless you have a disability, and in all honesty I hope you don't as I would not wish it on anyone.



Mark

Gengar 25.09.2009 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack1 (Post 974223)
The people that benifet are the oil consumers those that loose out are the Iraqi people.

The price of oil peaked at 7 times what it was in 2002 and is still three times as high. Not that good for consumers. Not bad for oil companies who now get to reap the rewards of the US' and our armed forces' sacrifice. Not so great for taxpayers, with the cost of the Iraq war being the best part of $1 trillion (one thousand billion dollars) to the US, although that's a conservative figure as it doesn't include things like the cost of lifetime healthcare for the wounded, extra disability pay, the cost to the economy of being deprived of the skills of these working age people and the long term of impact of financing a war by deficit. The UK hasn't yet had a proper inquiry into the Iraq war, so the cost is hard to guess, but the cost of just the military operations is over £8 billion.

Gengar 25.09.2009 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack1 (Post 974220)
Your claims are near impossible to back up.


I would disagree with you there, although this is only my opinion there are alot of people who should be on JSA rather then IB as although they are disabled in some way they are perfectly fit to work.



Well for once I agree with the government and I do believe it is possible to get alot of people on JSA back to work, it will however require them to do courses etc so that they have something else to put on there CV and thus increase the likelyhood of them being employed.


Corporate fraud is of course wrong but at the same time so is benifet fraud, plus anyone can stop it with just a call, these ideas are attacking people who don't work, which is fair enough, as the vast majority of people can work in some way.


My claims aren't impossible to back up. They're not particularly easy to demonstrate, but my knowledge comes from having worked in this field. When I tell you that ATOS are basically there to reject as many people as possible, you're just going to have to take my word for it. If you want to remain skeptical because I can't prove it, that's fine, but you certainly won't find anyone who claims anything different, particularly anyone who's had to have their medical or who has worked for them.

Here's a few more facts about IB
1) There are 1.4m people on it (not the 2.7m figure you will sometimes hear quoted, that's the total amount of people who have ever claimed it).
2) There's no short term incentive to go on it, it pays something like £2 more than the adult rate of JSA for the first year. After that it goes up to about £80 p/w, which is significantly less than a 35 hour p/w job at minimum wage.
3) 40% of people on it suffer from a mental health problem. And these tend to be severe, not the sort of thing where you an just take some pills and be fine.

The problem for a lot of people, isn't that they're permanently unable to do any sort of work, more precisely, IME, they tend to be able to do many things at one point, and very little at another. So for a few days, they might be great, up at 8am and out and able to do things, then for another week, just getting out of bed and going to the toilet is a significant challenge. Never mind cooking a proper meal, washing, carrying out every day errands like going to a bank etc. My experience of working with these people is that they would absolutely love to get a job, they feel that most able bodied people don't realise how lucky they are to be able to get one, but it just isn't going to happen if they're honest with potential employers - disabilities aren't really convenient enough to fit in to a nice shift pattern. Most jobs require you to be there, on time, every day, no excuses. Yeah you get a bit of leeway. But if you miss entire weeks because you just can't make it in, then who's going to take you?

Especially nowadays when even basic minimum wage jobs like supermarket work and high street shops have a 6 month probation period during which you can be let go for any reason.

Let's do the math. There are currently 450k job vacancies, and 2.5m people on JSA. Now in the last ten years there was a point when less than 1m people were on JSA, so of that 2.5m, we can assume that at least 1.5m are employable and would like to work. 1.5m into 450k? How do you do that? However, the 450k keeps getting smaller, the 2.5m keeps getting bigger, and you want to dump another 1m people on top of that?

My question to you is, where are these jobs going to come from? What job can you offer to the person who is only physically able to work 2 days a week and can't tell you what two days those will be?

Vincent 25.09.2009 01:40 PM

I really cant comment on the incapacity benefits system, but can say with some authority that there are many who claim JSA who make no effort to work and have no motivation to work. Personally I feel that a good policy would be for the long term unemployed (say, more than 3 months) to be utilised in some way to better their community as part of the requirements for claiming JSA;


The community will benefit by having whichever service is provided (cutting grass, maintaining elderly complexes, litter picking etc etc etc)

The genuine jobseeker will benefit as it will be easier to get back to work when they get a job

The shirker will either stop claiming JSA or be forced to at least give something back for the money they are claiming



I really cant see any way that this could be argued against. It just seems like common sense to me.

Raider12 25.09.2009 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974394)
The problem for a lot of people, isn't that they're permanently unable to do any sort of work, more precisely, IME, they tend to be able to do many things at one point, and very little at another. So for a few days, they might be great, up at 8am and out and able to do things, then for another week, just getting out of bed and going to the toilet is a significant challenge. Never mind cooking a proper meal, washing, carrying out every day errands like going to a bank etc. My experience of working with these people is that they would absolutely love to get a job, they feel that most able bodied people don't realise how lucky they are to be able to get one, but it just isn't going to happen if they're honest with potential employers - disabilities aren't really convenient enough to fit in to a nice shift pattern. Most jobs require you to be there, on time, every day, no excuses. Yeah you get a bit of leeway. But if you miss entire weeks because you just can't make it in, then who's going to take you?

?

I dont have ME or similar, I have severly damaged knees and in constant chronic pain with painkillers that are extremely powerful. I cannot walk far and have to use a stick, and with the example of a day you have mentioned able body folk do not begin to ubderstand how different your life is. Some days you get up and don't even get out of bed, not because you are work shy, but because you are in so much pain and have not slept the night before.

I really get annoyed when folk glibbly talk about disability without having the expeirience of disabilty either themself, a family member or in your case working in this field. The facts that you have given are correct, but some folk really do not accept anothers viewpoint when they are qualified to talk about it, when others aren't and actually should listen rather than posting rubbish.


Mark

Raider12 25.09.2009 01:52 PM

JR I am in agreement. There are shirkers out there without a doubt and they are noticeable. I see folk parking in disabled bays jumping out and running into the shops, aye right when it takes me ages to get out the car.

There are jobs out there, it may not be to everyones liking but it is work. It is doing my head in not working, especially since I have always worked. I just don't understand how someone can sit back and not work. But I genuinley feel sorry for the folk trying there hardest to get a job and not getting one, that must be sole destroying, and they are the folk who should be getting looked after.



Mark


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