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Gengar 25.09.2009 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syborg (Post 974433)
What makes you think that. . I have not been told that there is no state pension for me and I am just 38. .

I realise that NI pays for todays pensions and not necessarily mine but surely the only way to stop folk receiving a state pension is to say right anyone born after 01.01.2010 (for example) will no longer be entitled to state pension and will therefore no longer pay NI contribution. Anyone born before this date will still be eligible.

It won't happen like that, what will happen is that as more and more people claim it, either the amount put into the state pension will have to rise, or the amount it pays to each person will fall. By the time you retire, in 30 years (the retirement age will raise) 40% of the population will be retired, compared to about 20% now. So we can either double the amount we pay in pensions, half the amount we pay to each person, or somewhere in between.

That's assuming current population trends continue.

Csonka#39 25.09.2009 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974454)
It won't happen like that, what will happen is that as more and more people claim it, either the amount put into the state pension will have to rise, or the amount it pays to each person will fall. By the time you retire, in 30 years (the retirement age will raise) 40% of the population will be retired, compared to about 20% now. So we can either double the amount we pay in pensions, half the amount we pay to each person, or somewhere in between.

That's assuming current population trends continue.

I dont know I still think if they are going to make private pensions compulsory and scrap the state pension there has to be a cut off point somewhere. . then the number claiming will not grow but stay at one managable level of growth until that generation have passed away and actually numbers will dwindle not grow because of the 100% mortality rate thinking about it. .

Gengar 25.09.2009 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syborg (Post 974690)
I dont know I still think if they are going to make private pensions compulsory and scrap the state pension there has to be a cut off point somewhere. . then the number claiming will not grow but stay at one managable level of growth until that generation have passed away and actually numbers will dwindle not grow because of the 100% mortality rate thinking about it. .

But people are living longer and having fewer children. That trend isn't going to reverse. The only possible shake up would be a pandemic (a serious one not swine flu) that would either kill off many old people or many young people. It's also likely that as yet unforeseen medical advancements will increase the average lifespan even further.

Csonka#39 25.09.2009 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974717)
But people are living longer and having fewer children. That trend isn't going to reverse. The only possible shake up would be a pandemic (a serious one not swine flu) that would either kill off many old people or many young people. It's also likely that as yet unforeseen medical advancements will increase the average lifespan even further.

I understand your point and dont disagree with the above but the outrage of just cutting off those like us who have worked and paid into NI will be huge and a public relations disaster for any government.
I still suggest the best way forward, if state pension is to be scrapped, is to have a cut off date and work it from there. . you will then have an exact figure of those that will be entitled to state pension and the potential cost involved based on average life span. .the cost may rise momentarily but will drop off (obviously) as folk pass away.

jack1 25.09.2009 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raider12 (Post 974338)
Jack I would like to ask, have you had to go through the system for disability?

No thankfully I haven't.

Quote:

I have and I am disabled and currently in the process of being retired from my job as I am no longer fit for that purpose. However I am not on benefits i.e JSA or IB. In fact I am not fit for any work so does that mean you are more qualified than the 4 consultants that I have had dealing with me and there opinion is no longer fit, but your opinion a lot of folk are??

"Although this is only my opinion there are alot of people who should be on JSA rather then IB as although they are disabled in some way they are perfectly fit to work."
Can I just point out I obviously don't know about your or anyone else's personal circumstances, I am just commenting generally.

Quote:

I can back SA up on this matter, there are many forms returned as it is nigh on impossible to complete them properly as the form has so many questions, which does confuse people. Download the form and have a look.
I have never questioned issues people have with forms or the current paperwork issue.

Quote:

I am all for folk working, and I would love to be able to work instead of being stuck at home, as a lot of disabled folk would like to do. So don't lump everyone together that is disabled with folk who are not fit, there is a big difference between the 2 definitions. You don't have a medical degree so you are not qualified to talk on Disability unless you have a disability, and in all honesty I hope you don't as I would not wish it on anyone.

Mark
I am not grouping people who have serious claims to those that don't, I am just suggesting trends which don't apply to everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974368)
The price of oil peaked at 7 times what it was in 2002 and is still three times as high. Not that good for consumers. Not bad for oil companies who now get to reap the rewards of the US' and our armed forces' sacrifice. Not so great for taxpayers, with the cost of the Iraq war being the best part of $1 trillion (one thousand billion dollars) to the US, although that's a conservative figure as it doesn't include things like the cost of lifetime healthcare for the wounded, extra disability pay, the cost to the economy of being deprived of the skills of these working age people and the long term of impact of financing a war by deficit. The UK hasn't yet had a proper inquiry into the Iraq war, so the cost is hard to guess, but the cost of just the military operations is over £8 billion.

Well you have to think of the long term costs of oil pricing, the countries that invaded did it on the grounds of protecting prices.

jack1 25.09.2009 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974394)
My claims aren't impossible to back up. They're not particularly easy to demonstrate, but my knowledge comes from having worked in this field. When I tell you that ATOS are basically there to reject as many people as possible, you're just going to have to take my word for it. If you want to remain skeptical because I can't prove it, that's fine, but you certainly won't find anyone who claims anything different, particularly anyone who's had to have their medical or who has worked for them.

The only issue I would have is that if these companies are trying to stop people claiming then they aren't doing a great job.

Quote:

Here's a few more facts about IB
1) There are 1.4m people on it (not the 2.7m figure you will sometimes hear quoted, that's the total amount of people who have ever claimed it).
2) There's no short term incentive to go on it, it pays something like £2 more than the adult rate of JSA for the first year. After that it goes up to about £80 p/w, which is significantly less than a 35 hour p/w job at minimum wage.
3) 40% of people on it suffer from a mental health problem. And these tend to be severe, not the sort of thing where you an just take some pills and be fine.

The problem for a lot of people, isn't that they're permanently unable to do any sort of work, more precisely, IME, they tend to be able to do many things at one point, and very little at another. So for a few days, they might be great, up at 8am and out and able to do things, then for another week, just getting out of bed and going to the toilet is a significant challenge. Never mind cooking a proper meal, washing, carrying out every day errands like going to a bank etc. My experience of working with these people is that they would absolutely love to get a job, they feel that most able bodied people don't realise how lucky they are to be able to get one, but it just isn't going to happen if they're honest with potential employers - disabilities aren't really convenient enough to fit in to a nice shift pattern. Most jobs require you to be there, on time, every day, no excuses. Yeah you get a bit of leeway. But if you miss entire weeks because you just can't make it in, then who's going to take you?

Especially nowadays when even basic minimum wage jobs like supermarket work and high street shops have a 6 month probation period during which you can be let go for any reason.

Let's do the math. There are currently 450k job vacancies, and 2.5m people on JSA. Now in the last ten years there was a point when less than 1m people were on JSA, so of that 2.5m, we can assume that at least 1.5m are employable and would like to work. 1.5m into 450k? How do you do that? However, the 450k keeps getting smaller, the 2.5m keeps getting bigger, and you want to dump another 1m people on top of that?

My question to you is, where are these jobs going to come from? What job can you offer to the person who is only physically able to work 2 days a week and can't tell you what two days those will be?
Thanks for the info on benifets

What about community work like JR has mentioned for these people or perhaps freelance work when people work when they are fit?

To gain more jobs we can reduce tax and red tape and make Britain a more competitive business environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrvincent1 (Post 974398)
I really cant comment on the incapacity benefits system, but can say with some authority that there are many who claim JSA who make no effort to work and have no motivation to work. Personally I feel that a good policy would be for the long term unemployed (say, more than 3 months) to be utilised in some way to better their community as part of the requirements for claiming JSA;


The community will benefit by having whichever service is provided (cutting grass, maintaining elderly complexes, litter picking etc etc etc)

The genuine jobseeker will benefit as it will be easier to get back to work when they get a job

The shirker will either stop claiming JSA or be forced to at least give something back for the money they are claiming



I really cant see any way that this could be argued against. It just seems like common sense to me.

Sounds good to me.

jack1 25.09.2009 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raider12 (Post 974399)
I dont have ME or similar, I have severly damaged knees and in constant chronic pain with painkillers that are extremely powerful. I cannot walk far and have to use a stick, and with the example of a day you have mentioned able body folk do not begin to ubderstand how different your life is. Some days you get up and don't even get out of bed, not because you are work shy, but because you are in so much pain and have not slept the night before.

I really get annoyed when folk glibbly talk about disability without having the expeirience of disabilty either themself, a family member or in your case working in this field. The facts that you have given are correct, but some folk really do not accept anothers viewpoint when they are qualified to talk about it, when others aren't and actually should listen rather than posting rubbish.


Mark

Mark, I hope your not suggesting that we should agree with someone just because they have experience in that field, I hope I have got the wrong end of the stick.

jack1 25.09.2009 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974426)
What we need is unions. I'm not saying the country should go on strike, but if we don't stand up for proper jobs and working practices, then they'll disappear. And I hate to say it, but tighter immigration controls - immigration has to in some way be linked to our labour needs, this is a problem with the current EU setup. I think it's obvious that many employers are specifically looking to take on foreign workers, particularly from the poorest parts of the EU, due a perception that they're easier to abuse.

No we don't need more unions we live in an age with the right worker/employer balance in this country and we should keep it that way.

Why do we need tighter immigration controls on EU migrants, personally I am thankful for them, better service at a lower price, although that is not always the case.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974454)
It won't happen like that, what will happen is that as more and more people claim it, either the amount put into the state pension will have to rise, or the amount it pays to each person will fall. By the time you retire, in 30 years (the retirement age will raise) 40% of the population will be retired, compared to about 20% now. So we can either double the amount we pay in pensions, half the amount we pay to each person, or somewhere in between.

That's assuming current population trends continue.

IMO they should either scrap state pensions for people below fourty now, or just keep raising the age, which is what I think will happen.

Hannibal 26.09.2009 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secret Admirer (Post 974404)
They piloted a scheme like this somewhere out in the states (I'll look it up) and it was quite successful, but it was at least as expensive as paying benefits. You're right though, there are definitely people who just don't want a job, they exist, but I think most people do genuinely want a job.

Was'nt it in New York, seem to remember Boy George had some kind of community service order placed on him requiring him to go on street cleaning duty after he falsely reported a burglary.

vann_mcelroy 26.09.2009 12:26 AM

Whole thread is a joke....., would "Jack1" have anything to talk about ? unless he was a serial (MODDED) to talksport ????


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