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jack1 23.09.2009 09:58 PM

Politics
 
Just thought we should start a thread on my favourite subject, Politics?

First topic of debate, are we taxed too much?

Csonka#39 23.09.2009 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack1 (Post 973417)
Just thought we should start a thread on my favourite subject, Politics?

First topic of debate, are we taxed too much?

Yes but what are you going to do when we want prisons, clean streets, police, armed forces, healthcare. . etc etc etc the list goes on. .

NEXT. .

Lagunium 23.09.2009 10:21 PM

Why do I sense fun coming up for us Mods? :p Ok, pre-emptive warning on what's always an emotive topic, keep it polite and respectful!

My personal opinion is yes, we are taxed too much - however it's very difficult to do anything about it no matter what your philiospohy is, because there's no political incentive to match up spending with what you're providing - causing all manner of fun problems. I'm about to do my Masters in Finance after doing Economics and Politics at undergrad and when people ask me what the key lesson of the subject is, I always say (using the more-polite version so I don't have to warn myself) "How the latter completely screws up the former."

You can see where the trap lies. As a induvidual politician, if you can spend on stuff and defer payment to later (and preferably another leader) you have the perfect situation for you - lots of nice stuff you can point to and say "aren't I great" without having to put up the tax bill. Your support is therefore maximised.

It's only when the inevitable barrage of debt built up over many years finally reaches horrific proportions that people suddenly start murmuring and speaking of "prudence" despite the fact that the sudden attack of "prudence" is far more expensive, and causes much more pain than ever needed to be caused. If you get a rare politician who tries to stop things before they hit breaking point, either through cutting services or raising taxes depending on your political persuasion, the public will backlash against them regardless.

Cornishman32 23.09.2009 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syborg (Post 973421)
Yes but what are you going to do when we want prisons, clean streets, police, armed forces, healthcare. . etc etc etc the list goes on. .

NEXT. .

Yeah of course we need all these things... but he asked are we being taxed too much for those things? I think we probably are. ...For starters, perhaps our taxes wouldn't be so high if we didn't keep getting involved and wasting money in pointless wars (pointless in my humble opinion). ...And there are countless other ways in which the government wastes our money.

Oh Jeez... I agree with Lagunium... this thread can only be trouble. It's bound to end in tears!

IronHammer 23.09.2009 10:54 PM

Its only a matter of time before race and religion gets involved, rightly and/or wrongly. And we all know how that ends.

Swearing, tears, and the eventual realisation that I'm right.

Csonka#39 23.09.2009 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornishman32 (Post 973463)
Yeah of course we need all these things... but he asked are we being taxed too much for those things? I think we probably are. ...For starters, perhaps our taxes wouldn't be so high if we didn't keep getting involved in pointless wars (pointless in my humble opinion). ...And there are countless other ways in which the government wastes our money.

Oh Jeez... I agree with Lagunium... this thread can only be trouble. It's bound to end in tears!

Possibly we are but without a look at the books and honest accountants I dont kn ow how much the NHS costs us each year in real terms. . I agree with the wars thing although we DO need our forces and weaponry etc which can only come from our taxes. .

I dont know we do pay enough or maybe I should say I dont think the right people pay enough. . High end earners etc. . I know we are billions in debt and so we have a leaky tap somewhere and yet the Government still borrowed to get us out of recession. . maybe I just dont understand but when Im broke I stop spending and make do with what i have. . radical I guess but there it is. .

We all want these services and better care and delivery but then complain when they want to tax us. . I am a realist and know it hurts but it is a necessary evil. .

Lagunium 23.09.2009 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syborg (Post 973468)
Possibly we are but without a look at the books and honest accountants I dont kn ow how much the NHS costs us each year in real terms. . I agree with the wars thing although we DO need our forces and weaponry etc which can only come from our taxes. .

I dont know we do pay enough or maybe I should say I dont think the right people pay enough. . High end earners etc. . I know we are billions in debt and so we have a leaky tap somewhere and yet the Government still borrowed to get us out of recession. . maybe I just dont understand but when Im broke I stop spending and make do with what i have. . radical I guess but there it is. .

We all want these services and better care and delivery but then complain when they want to tax us. . I am a realist and know it hurts but it is a necessary evil. .

NHS spending is approximately 8.5% of GDP. Even for someone like myself who's a "if it's not nailed down it's best left in the hands of the market" libertarian I have to conclude it works remarkably well, although that's not to say that there isn't any waste and efficiency. We're about 13th in the world in terms of health spending per head (from all sources) and 13th in outcome. It's the adminstration side that is shockingly cheap - I was genuinely taken aback - it's amazing how much having to bill people costs in systems not free at the point of use.

If you got rid of the waste, at some points incompetence (I've just had a very bad time dealing with the NHS where they sent some wrong patient records causing many problems) and over-management it could be a truly excellent system, rather than the merely good one it is at the present. You must remember however, that it's only possible because we vastly underpay medical staff.

jack1 24.09.2009 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syborg (Post 973468)
I dont know we do pay enough or maybe I should say I dont think the right people pay enough. . High end earners etc. . I know we are billions in debt and so we have a leaky tap somewhere and yet the Government still borrowed to get us out of recession. . maybe I just dont understand but when Im broke I stop spending and make do with what i have. . radical I guess but there it is. .

We all want these services and better care and delivery but then complain when they want to tax us. . I am a realist and know it hurts but it is a necessary evil. .

High earners alreay pay an unfair rate of tax, IMO there should be a flat rate of tax for all.

On you second point, speak for yourself I think we need a cut in public services.

jack1 24.09.2009 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagunium (Post 973470)
NHS spending is approximately 8.5% of GDP. Even for someone like myself who's a "if it's not nailed down it's best left in the hands of the market" libertarian I have to conclude it works remarkably well, although that's not to say that there isn't any waste and efficiency. We're about 13th in the world in terms of health spending per head (from all sources) and 13th in outcome. It's the adminstration side that is shockingly cheap - I was genuinely taken aback - it's amazing how much having to bill people costs in systems not free at the point of use.

As I personally am a conservative libertarian I think its strange that someone with a libertarian view point would support the NHS.

Quote:

If you got rid of the waste, at some points incompetence (I've just had a very bad time dealing with the NHS where they sent some wrong patient records causing many problems) and over-management it could be a truly excellent system, rather than the merely good one it is at the present. You must remember however, that it's only possible because we vastly underpay medical staff.
If people are willing to accept the money they are being payed then we are paying people the right amount, if we have a staff shortage then people need to be payed more.

Vincent 24.09.2009 04:03 PM

More money for the police!! :D :p


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