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-   -   Politics (https://forum.nfluk.com/showthread.php?t=49460)

Vincent 23.01.2013 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neptune (Post 1758989)
But the idiots get in after every election:rolleyes:

Yea, but they will be different idiots next time :D

GiantsFan10 23.01.2013 03:23 PM

Cameron putting party interests ahead of national. It's clear he doesn't like the EU but knows it would be huge mistake to leave it. As soon as he announced the in/out referendum he then went onto what a mistake it would it would be leave. Guy just wants to appease his 'Britain still rules the waves' backbenchers.

Now it's Ed Millibands turn. Referendum or not? My guess is not yet, if he is anything like his brother, which we should pray he is.

Some repatriation is needed and Europe needs to become more federal and overtime that is what will happen. However Britain stamping its feet and spitting its dummy out because it didn't get its own way, isn't going to work.

In my mind it is quite clear what is going to happen in the next election;

Conservatives win the election but not enough to gain a majority
Labours vote goes up substantially
Lib Dems lose votes but still have enough to be the King makers, again.

Lib/Lab pact of 2015. Leading to a Labour majority by 2017.

Gengar 23.01.2013 03:29 PM

System 1

Two chambers who can introduce scrutinise and vote on legislation, one elected, one completely unelected but appointed permanently and stuffed with party donors. No formal constitution - any government with a majority of one can change any law or right.

No seperation of church and state. Bishops appointed permamently to unelected house. Within the last decade a long serving head of government felt it necessary to lie about their true religious beliefs to fit in with establishment.

Bills signed into law by a single unelected person chosen by birthright with no mechanism for removal, to which all elected members must swear allegiance under oath - this person is unaccountable to the laws they sign and is also head of armed forces.

Draconian restrictions on press reporting of crimes.

No formal mechanism for states/regions to leave.

No realistic system of budget accountability or audit.

System 2

Fully elected supra-parliament with limited powers, but which can introduce and vote on legislation to be passed by regions. Regional parliaments almost all fully elected (at regional discretion), with wide ranging powers greater than supra-parliament, ability to chose how to implement all laws imposed by supra-parliament, full budget control with obligation to give around 0.6% of government spending to supra-parliament - greatest contribution taken from richest members.

Formal constitution which strives to protect basic human rights, prevent discrimination on basis of color, sex, creed etc, as well as provide tariff free trade for business.

System of appointment by fixed term (think it's 5 years) commissioners with specialisms in areas such as trade appointed by regional governments. Commissioners can be rejected en masse by supra-parliament.

Yearly budget is fully audited by independent auditors. Formal mechanism for regions/states to leave.


Both are a little more complex than that but these are the main points.

Which of these is more democratic?

European Bob 23.01.2013 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tocheb73 (Post 1758925)
For a minor party, UKIP certainly get a lot of airtime on BBC political programming. Far more than the Greens do, and they actually have an MP!

It must be that loony left BBC the right wing newspapers are constantly moaning about :p

European Bob 23.01.2013 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiantsFan10 (Post 1759127)
Cameron putting party interests ahead of national. It's clear he doesn't like the EU but knows it would be huge mistake to leave it. As soon as he announced the in/out referendum he then went onto what a mistake it would it would be leave. Guy just wants to appease his 'Britain still rules the waves' backbenchers.

Now it's Ed Millibands turn. Referendum or not? My guess is not yet, if he is anything like his brother, which we should pray he is.

Some repatriation is needed and Europe needs to become more federal and overtime that is what will happen. However Britain stamping its feet and spitting its dummy out because it didn't get its own way, isn't going to work.

In my mind it is quite clear what is going to happen in the next election;

Conservatives win the election but not enough to gain a majority
Labours vote goes up substantially
Lib Dems lose votes but still have enough to be the King makers, again.

Lib/Lab pact of 2015. Leading to a Labour majority by 2017.

If the UKIP vote transfers to the national polls (and it might not despite straw polling) you could see UKIP as the minor party alongside Tories. But I'm more hopeful of a Lib/Lab.

CharlieBear 23.01.2013 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tocheb73 (Post 1758925)
For a minor party, UKIP certainly get a lot of airtime on BBC political programming. Far more than the Greens do, and they actually have an MP!

UKIP are pretty solidly the #4 political party in the country these days - they were on 9% a month ago.

Not sure what the Greens are on atm.

Substitute 23.01.2013 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gengar (Post 1759134)
Which of these is more democratic?

You seem to assume that EU politicians are benevolent, bipartisan and insignifcant whereas UK politicians are devious, disgraceful and omnipotent. Why would the EU seek noble aims whilst parliament seeks base aims?

(From my dealings, the significant difference being it's very difficult to remove someone from a position of power in the EU, whereas here it is much easier to do so. Thus in Europe they have the security to chase the ambitious projects - some are good, some are bad. They rather serve as a civil service than an elected group).

If you want democracy, let the people vote whether they want to be a part of Europe. There is nothing democratic about a small minority (politicians) deciding what's for me, and the country (staying in the EU or not).

boaby81 23.01.2013 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieBear (Post 1759459)
UKIP are pretty solidly the #4 political party in the country these days - they were on 9% a month ago.

Not sure what the Greens are on atm.

I wonder which country they polled. Wonder how many Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish were asked?

UKIP are nothing in Scotland.

Substitute 31.01.2013 08:50 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzlvb...ature=youtu.be

Tax evasion - some all we honest folk, right or left, can agree on. Who said politics and hip-hop couldn't mix?

Anarchy in the WV 01.02.2013 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Substitute (Post 1764636)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzlvb...ature=youtu.be

Tax evasion - some all we honest folk, right or left, can agree on. Who said politics and hip-hop couldn't mix?

The use of tax havens is different than tax evasion. Different jurisdictions will have different tax laws and that is fine because people in different places have the right to determine their own laws. Big countries like the USA and UK shouldn't be throwing our weight around against smaller countries that choose a different tax system.


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