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  #121  
Old 06.05.2011, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
Have you ever actually been in a firefight? You realise that one well positioned person can take a hell of alot of removing from a position?


I do agree though that the story should have been gotten straight before being released.
Of course I haven't it just stretches the credibility to think that 6 heavily armed US special forces troops would really have that much trouble with one armed assailant. I think it's the use of the word gunfight that baffles me if they said the operation took 40 minutes to secure the building, neutralise any defenders and find and bag Osama then fair enough. Although I suppose the word gunfight does conjure up images of lead flying everywhere and a more protracted engagement when technically it means people shot bullets at each other, not necessarily lots of them. Bit like Bill Clinton and his understanding of "s*xual acts" or whatever it was :P

Not hugely important in the long run but it's bothersome that they can't seem to get their facts straight or worse that they think the public are stupid enough to just swallow whatever they tell us. Who knows. Still stinks
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  #122  
Old 06.05.2011, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bean49 View Post
Of course I haven't it just stretches the credibility to think that 6 heavily armed US special forces troops would really have that much trouble with one armed assailant. I think it's the use of the word gunfight that baffles me if they said the operation took 40 minutes to secure the building, neutralise any defenders and find and bag Osama then fair enough. Although I suppose the word gunfight does conjure up images of lead flying everywhere and a more protracted engagement when technically it means people shot bullets at each other, not necessarily lots of them. Bit like Bill Clinton and his understanding of "s*xual acts" or whatever it was :P

Not hugely important in the long run but it's bothersome that they can't seem to get their facts straight or worse that they think the public are stupid enough to just swallow whatever they tell us. Who knows. Still stinks
A firefight can last all but one round being fired off. At the end of the day he's dead, whatever stories the conspiracy theorists come up with it really makes no difference as he is gone no matter the way no matter the reason, good riddance at the end of the day. He was a waste of flesh.
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  #123  
Old 06.05.2011, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Matty™ View Post
A firefight can last all but one round being fired off. At the end of the day he's dead, whatever stories the conspiracy theorists come up with it really makes no difference as he is gone no matter the way no matter the reason, good riddance at the end of the day. He was a waste of flesh.
The trouble is though the US and us in the west like to push our democracy and how good it is to everyone else so when this happens and we had the chance to take him alive and then try him in a US court etc and it doesnt then democracy loses, Bin Laden may have rightly died but suddenly the whole world knows that Democracy is quite happy to execute when it wants.

Put it another way when the US and us complain about China/Saudi Arabia exectuing can they hold any moral ground regardless of whatever crimes Bin Laden commited.

I dont know much about firefights etc but what i dont get is how he had done so well to escape for the last 9 years and then in his own house whilst there was a gun fight going on for 40 min he didnt realise and attempt to escape He didnt have any escape plan whatsoever even though he knew he was being hunted
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  #124  
Old 07.05.2011, 12:30 AM
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no matter the way no matter the reason.
Too many folks in the west have that opinion of the middle east, too many folks in the middle east have the same opinion of the west.

And you end up with a never ending cycle.
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  #125  
Old 07.05.2011, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bean49 View Post
Now they're saying only one of the "people" in the compound actually fired a gun? There was a 40 minute firefight apparently between 6 Navy Seals and 1 bloke with an AK and the others throwing no more than harsh words?

The original story they realeased was about as believable as the lone gunman theory. Stinks.
I think 40 minutes was total time on the ground... that included ransacking the place and hauling out dozens of computers/hard drives/etc and torching a helicopter... so the actual fighting was less than that.... not sure how long.

and as said above, one well positioned person can tie up people for a long time.

doubt there will be a minute by minute recap for obvious reasons, but I think people on different parts of the ground and in the situation room each had different perspective and recalled events differently... sorting it all together into an "official story" takes time... maybe there should have been more control on the story getting out, but I'm glad we are being open with large parts of it... it would have been REAL easy to just say the "human shield" story with the woman that was killed was accurate (along with other things that have been "clarified")
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  #126  
Old 07.05.2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by leebladedawg View Post
The trouble is though the US and us in the west like to push our democracy and how good it is to everyone else so when this happens and we had the chance to take him alive and then try him in a US court etc and it doesnt then democracy loses, Bin Laden may have rightly died but suddenly the whole world knows that Democracy is quite happy to execute when it wants.

Put it another way when the US and us complain about China/Saudi Arabia exectuing can they hold any moral ground regardless of whatever crimes Bin Laden commited.

I dont know much about firefights etc but what i dont get is how he had done so well to escape for the last 9 years and then in his own house whilst there was a gun fight going on for 40 min he didnt realise and attempt to escape He didnt have any escape plan whatsoever even though he knew he was being hunted
there wasn't any escape... there were 4 helicopters (well, 3 pretty quick) around the compound, a few dozen soldiers, and probably a number of CIA guys in the neighborhood... and probably some planes that they haven't talked about. and OBL was on the third floor.. there was nowhere to go, it was just a matter of time before the US soldiers got to him.


...personally, I'm not sure if this was an ordered kill or not (I'm not too worried about it, imo he is clearly an enemy combatant and open game, we would have been justified hitting him with a drone strike or having a B-2 drop bombs, but I'm glad we didn't use the Air Force for this one)

I guess one argument against it being a straight up "hit" job was that it took 40 minutes to get through the compound... if they went in with the goal of killing everyone and everything they could have been through the building in 5 minutes... the fact that the majority of people in the building walked away (into the stunned hands of Pakistani officials) kind of flys in the face of it... not sure if that is the case or not, but something to consider.


although part of me also wonders if losing the helicopter might have changed the mission... maybe with everyone having to pile into into one fewer chopper there was less room to extract someone who was kicking and screaming.


I don't know... as an American I'm glad we got the SOB, and I'm glad there are people questioning it... I'm not necessarily opposed to us using targeted killings on those who have openly asked for war against us... but the last thing I want from this raid is for the US to think we can use this sort of force less judiciously in the future.
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  #127  
Old 07.05.2011, 09:30 PM
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The Pentagon has released home videos of Osama Bin Laden, seized at the secret Pakistani compound where he was shot dead by US commandos.

The tapes show him watching himself on television, and preparing a video message addressed to the US.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13323060

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  #128  
Old 09.05.2011, 11:32 AM
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Hmmmmmmm. I've received an unsolicited email from a man who addressed me as 'my friend'. That's friendly, isn't it? He points out - after a bit of unrelated chit-chat - that if you take the surnames of the US President and Vice-President, substitute the b in the first for an s and then insert nla into the second you get O(s)ama Bi(nla)den. He goes on to ask have I ever seen them in the same room as the "so-called deceased terrorist leader". Well, I haven't. Makes you think, doesn't it? The man would like my credit card details to help fund his 'Truth-telling Mission'. What have I got to lose? He's certainly been truthful so far.
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  #129  
Old 09.05.2011, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FightingIllini07 View Post
there wasn't any escape... there were 4 helicopters (well, 3 pretty quick) around the compound, a few dozen soldiers, and probably a number of CIA guys in the neighborhood... and probably some planes that they haven't talked about. and OBL was on the third floor.. there was nowhere to go, it was just a matter of time before the US soldiers got to him.


...personally, I'm not sure if this was an ordered kill or not (I'm not too worried about it, imo he is clearly an enemy combatant and open game, we would have been justified hitting him with a drone strike or having a B-2 drop bombs, but I'm glad we didn't use the Air Force for this one)

I guess one argument against it being a straight up "hit" job was that it took 40 minutes to get through the compound... if they went in with the goal of killing everyone and everything they could have been through the building in 5 minutes... the fact that the majority of people in the building walked away (into the stunned hands of Pakistani officials) kind of flys in the face of it... not sure if that is the case or not, but something to consider.


although part of me also wonders if losing the helicopter might have changed the mission... maybe with everyone having to pile into into one fewer chopper there was less room to extract someone who was kicking and screaming.


I don't know... as an American I'm glad we got the SOB, and I'm glad there are people questioning it... I'm not necessarily opposed to us using targeted killings on those who have openly asked for war against us... but the last thing I want from this raid is for the US to think we can use this sort of force less judiciously in the future.
If the firefight wasnt for 40 min etc and it was going through the compound then he still had plenty of time to get rid of evidence before they reached him on 3rd floor, even if the gun fight only lasted for few mins then he still could have got rid of stuff.

As for other evidence to consider regarding those who survived then lets be honest wiping them all out was never an option, not if you wish to still push the idea of democracy and yourselves as leading exponents of it.

Finally as a Brit who is very pro American, whilst i would rather see you bring to justice through the court systems i can understand the need to protect yourselves no matter what even if i disagree with it, would just rather you came out and admitted it rather than clearly hide facts
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  #130  
Old 09.05.2011, 05:43 PM
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i would rather see you bring to justice through the court systems
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Only the man who has enough good in him to feel the justice of the penalty can be punished. ~William Ernest Hocking

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