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  #41  
Old 25.09.2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jrvincent1 View Post
I really cant comment on the incapacity benefits system, but can say with some authority that there are many who claim JSA who make no effort to work and have no motivation to work. Personally I feel that a good policy would be for the long term unemployed (say, more than 3 months) to be utilised in some way to better their community as part of the requirements for claiming JSA;


The community will benefit by having whichever service is provided (cutting grass, maintaining elderly complexes, litter picking etc etc etc)

The genuine jobseeker will benefit as it will be easier to get back to work when they get a job

The shirker will either stop claiming JSA or be forced to at least give something back for the money they are claiming



I really cant see any way that this could be argued against. It just seems like common sense to me.

They piloted a scheme like this somewhere out in the states (I'll look it up) and it was quite successful, but it was at least as expensive as paying benefits. You're right though, there are definitely people who just don't want a job, they exist, but I think most people do genuinely want a job.
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  #42  
Old 25.09.2009, 01:57 PM
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I've got a friend who makes his living playing poker. Quite a handsome living too. He also pays no tax but claims no benefit either. But I know he's visited a NHS Doctor recently. How is that possible?
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  #43  
Old 25.09.2009, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Admirer View Post
My claims aren't impossible to back up. They're not particularly easy to demonstrate, but my knowledge comes from having worked in this field. When I tell you that ATOS are basically there to reject as many people as possible, you're just going to have to take my word for it. If you want to remain skeptical because I can't prove it, that's fine, but you certainly won't find anyone who claims anything different, particularly anyone who's had to have their medical or who has worked for them.

Here's a few more facts about IB
1) There are 1.4m people on it (not the 2.7m figure you will sometimes hear quoted, that's the total amount of people who have ever claimed it).
2) There's no short term incentive to go on it, it pays something like £2 more than the adult rate of JSA for the first year. After that it goes up to about £80 p/w, which is significantly less than a 35 hour p/w job at minimum wage.
3) 40% of people on it suffer from a mental health problem. And these tend to be severe, not the sort of thing where you an just take some pills and be fine.

The problem for a lot of people, isn't that they're permanently unable to do any sort of work, more precisely, IME, they tend to be able to do many things at one point, and very little at another. So for a few days, they might be great, up at 8am and out and able to do things, then for another week, just getting out of bed and going to the toilet is a significant challenge. Never mind cooking a proper meal, washing, carrying out every day errands like going to a bank etc. My experience of working with these people is that they would absolutely love to get a job, they feel that most able bodied people don't realise how lucky they are to be able to get one, but it just isn't going to happen if they're honest with potential employers - disabilities aren't really convenient enough to fit in to a nice shift pattern. Most jobs require you to be there, on time, every day, no excuses. Yeah you get a bit of leeway. But if you miss entire weeks because you just can't make it in, then who's going to take you?

Especially nowadays when even basic minimum wage jobs like supermarket work and high street shops have a 6 month probation period during which you can be let go for any reason.

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Let's do the math. There are currently 450k job vacancies, and 2.5m people on JSA. Now in the last ten years there was a point when less than 1m people were on JSA, so of that 2.5m, we can assume that at least 1.5m are employable and would like to work. 1.5m into 450k? How do you do that? However, the 450k keeps getting smaller, the 2.5m keeps getting bigger, and you want to dump another 1m people on top of that?
I have a theory that the reason there are so few jobs is because Women now go to work rather than being home mothers to families. not being sexist here but it has to be a factor right. . not to mention the growth in population and all of us living longer. .wages are now not enough to cover the cost of living. if they ever were and with more and more career women the jobs for male workers shrinks. . higher unemployment with not enough jobs to fulfill the need.

Supermarkets etc only employing PT workers means someone has to now get 2 jobs rather than 1 in order to make ends meet. .

So a growing population with women workers and PT jobs all add up to us being stuffed for work. . not to mention the immigration issue where indiginous peoples are losing out to migrant workers. .

right Ive lit the paper now I sit back and watch the fireworks. .
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  #44  
Old 25.09.2009, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by beer_bart View Post
I've got a friend who makes his living playing poker. Quite a handsome living too. He also pays no tax but claims no benefit either. But I know he's visited a NHS Doctor recently. How is that possible?
You don't need to pay tax to visit a GP. You just need to be registered with the NHS. In fact in some places you can see the nurse no questions asked even if you're not registered. Gambling income isn't taxed. This person is still contributing to economy, he still buys food, pays rent, w/e, he just doesn't pay income tax as he has no taxable income. It's sort of like winning the lottery except lots of little wins.
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  #45  
Old 25.09.2009, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Admirer View Post
You don't need to pay tax to visit a GP. You just need to be registered with the NHS. In fact in some places you can see the nurse no questions asked even if you're not registered. Gambling income isn't taxed. This person is still contributing to economy, he still buys food, pays rent, w/e, he just doesn't pay income tax as he has no taxable income. It's sort of like winning the lottery except lots of little wins.
but surely if he is not paying NI/PAYE then no government pension at retirement age?
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  #46  
Old 25.09.2009, 02:03 PM
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Thanks - I just wanted to know that was all. I've done have much of an opinion of him really. Good luck I say, he's found a way of making a decent living and the system allows him to do this as its not taxed anymore.

He is a lasy s**t though!
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  #47  
Old 25.09.2009, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by syborg View Post
I have a theory that the reason there are so few jobs is because Women now go to work rather than being home mothers to families. not being sexist here but it has to be a factor right. . not to mention the growth in population and all of us living longer. .wages are now not enough to cover the cost of living. if they ever were and with more and more career women the jobs for male workers shrinks. . higher unemployment with not enough jobs to fulfill the need.

Supermarkets etc only employing PT workers means someone has to now get 2 jobs rather than 1 in order to make ends meet. .

So a growing population with women workers and PT jobs all add up to us being stuffed for work. . not to mention the immigration issue where indiginous peoples are losing out to migrant workers. .

right Ive lit the paper now I sit back and watch the fireworks. .
That's pretty much true and it's not exactly controversial. More people in the job market means more applicants per job, which results in lower pay. Not only that, but doubling the workforce has massively inflated the cost of housing.

Good point about PT work too, the job market is changing. There are fewer jobs for life, many employers are trying to shift workers on to minimum hours contracts, where they work one day a week but can be offered 4 or more extra days, as it's easier and cheaper to just reduce someone to their minimum hours than to make them redundant. What we need is unions. I'm not saying the country should go on strike, but if we don't stand up for proper jobs and working practices, then they'll disappear. And I hate to say it, but tighter immigration controls - immigration has to in some way be linked to our labour needs, this is a problem with the current EU setup. I think it's obvious that many employers are specifically looking to take on foreign workers, particularly from the poorest parts of the EU, due a perception that they're easier to abuse.
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  #48  
Old 25.09.2009, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by syborg View Post
but surely if he is not paying NI/PAYE then no government pension at retirement age?
No one under 40 is going to get a pension anyway
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  #49  
Old 25.09.2009, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Secret Admirer View Post
No one under 40 is going to get a pension anyway
What makes you think that. . I have not been told that there is no state pension for me and I am just 38. .

I realise that NI pays for todays pensions and not necessarily mine but surely the only way to stop folk receiving a state pension is to say right anyone born after 01.01.2010 (for example) will no longer be entitled to state pension and will therefore no longer pay NI contribution. Anyone born before this date will still be eligible.
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  #50  
Old 25.09.2009, 02:29 PM
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Globalisation is a major contributor to the state of the job market. It seems everything now is looking to be farmed out to China or Eastern Europe. I can only see this getting worse and worse.
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