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  #14741  
Old 09.12.2017, 10:44 PM
davidjones178@hotmail.co.uk
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Originally Posted by goodkarma84 View Post
its amazing to find new lows for Trump but campaigning for Moore might be one.

on top of the sexual abuse claims, which Trump also has, is has one of Trumps other paw prints on it, racism.

Moore, when asked about when America was last great stated that it was during slavery, its hard to comprehend that level of awfulness, let alone that he gets supported by 1 of 2 major parties in a country like that.
I'm not going to try to defend Moore as such. He can try to do that himself.

But in scrupulous fairness, his remark was..

"I think it was great at the time when families were united — even though we had slavery — they cared for one another.... Our families were strong, our country had a direction."

Okay, when was this? When was every family caring and united in America?

It's a fantasy. A sepia tinted lingering look in soft focus at an America that never existed. Perhaps he was thinking of the Waltons. Or some pre Civil War version of them. It is seductive though. To assume the past was better.

I remember a lady I used to work with - who came from abroad but had lived in London for some years - sighed one day and asked us "why can't London be like it used to be, when everyone was moral and well behaved and nice to each other?". "When was that?" we asked. Turns out she was thinking of the 18th Century. We explained that half of London back then was addicted to Gin. But I think she meant the 19th and she had been watching Sherlock Holmes. It's a fantasy, but some people suck it up.

..and I suspect a lot of Americans do believe American greatness was first realised during slavery. Not because of slavery - Moore doesn't state this either - but sure, during slavery. The War of Independence was fought during slavery. The Declaration of Independence was written during slavery. The War of 1812 was fought during slavery. Are these not looked back upon as episodes of greatness?

Whether that was the greatest time is a matter for Americans, but I would be surprised if they are not contenders.

What they are not, certainly in the case of the 1775, are contenders for family unity. The Revolutionary War broke families in two, caused sons to denounce fathers, neighbours to murder neighbours.. and a lot of loyalists to flee America completely and resettle in England.

What he is thinking of is a mystery. Perhaps he saw something on TV too..
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  #14742  
Old 09.12.2017, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by davidjones178@hotmail.co.uk View Post
I'm not going to try to defend Moore as such. He can try to do that himself.

But in scrupulous fairness, his remark was..

"I think it was great at the time when families were united — even though we had slavery — they cared for one another.... Our families were strong, our country had a direction."

Okay, when was this? When was every family caring and united in America?

It's a fantasy. A sepia tinted lingering look in soft focus at an America that never existed. Perhaps he was thinking of the Waltons. Or some pre Civil War version of them. It is seductive though. To assume the past was better.

I remember a lady I used to work with - who came from abroad but had lived in London for some years - sighed one day and asked us "why can't London be like it used to be, when everyone was moral and well behaved and nice to each other?". "When was that?" we asked. Turns out she was thinking of the 18th Century. We explained that half of London back then was addicted to Gin. But I think she meant the 19th and she had been watching Sherlock Holmes. It's a fantasy, but some people suck it up.

..and I suspect a lot of Americans do believe American greatness was first realised during slavery. Not because of slavery - Moore doesn't state this either - but sure, during slavery. The War of Independence was fought during slavery. The Declaration of Independence was written during slavery. The War of 1812 was fought during slavery. Are these not looked back upon as episodes of greatness?

Whether that was the greatest time is a matter for Americans, but I would be surprised if they are not contenders.

What they are not, certainly in the case of the 1775, are contenders for family unity. The Revolutionary War broke families in two, caused sons to denounce fathers, neighbours to murder neighbours.. and a lot of loyalists to flee America completely and resettle in England.

What he is thinking of is a mystery. Perhaps he saw something on TV too..
that sounds like the comments i'm talking about but its a bit like saying i was in the best of health, even though i was riddled with cancer.
plus the question was when was America last great, so that skips over a ton plus other chances for this greatness and it was asked by a black person, so is it a shot or ignorance.

theres this idea in the States that they can just change history and that the civil war wasn't mainly about slavery, from certain types.

now where this lies between ignorance and hate, is a key question. but going by the views this man seems to hold i know which one i think its closer too.
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  #14743  
Old 09.12.2017, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by davidjones178@hotmail.co.uk View Post
Hmm, not sure. Maybe someone got the wrong end of the stick?



The way I understand it an EU citizen will be able to come to the UK on the day before us leaving and be due permanent residence. Surely this will apply in reverse.

I can't imagine that you would then be discriminated against compared to existing UK nationals in Germany (say), who will assuredly deserve the right to continue to move freely.

But nothing is agreed until everything is agreed! So, really, who knows? The whole thing could still fall apart over Ireland or anything else.
i found the answer today, which is the cut off date is the date of leaving the EU, not the date of the end of the 2-year transition period following leaving. However, UK nationals resident in the EU before the cut-off date will essentially only have tourist/short-term rights in member states other than the one in which they reside post-Brexit. So if you are British live in Spain by March 2019 your freedom of movement rights are preserved with respect to Spain. While you remain free to go on holiday to Portugal or go on a business trip to Denmark, you will not have the same rights as an EU national to move to Portugal or Denmark or wherever to live or work. The only solution for that would be to become a Spanish national, which you would have the right to after a certain number of years' residency. A tricky issues for some nationalities though as they do not allow you dual status, meaning you need to choose between this and being British.
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  #14744  
Old 09.12.2017, 11:48 PM
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Yet more nonsense from the Daily Mail. May has brought the EU to heel!

It only cost £40 billion and given in to every one of their demands!

Even by Mail standards it's deluded.
They probably need to tow the line. Tory to the core, they fear that vilifying the PM could mean Corbyn in power. The Express on the other hand is not a Tory paper (it was more UKIP) so they don't care they just want hard Brexit.
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  #14745  
Old 09.12.2017, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by davidjones178@hotmail.co.uk View Post
It's worth observing that nobody is giving an exact figure. This suggests we have agreed to cover costs that are estimated - and I think you would expect May etc to underestimate that if they can. It could end up costing us more. One would hope though not hugely more.
What I heard is that the EU signed off on Britain coming out with what may be one estimate within a reasonable band of estimates as to the total cost, that figure being very much on the low side. It allows Britain to save face by pushing around a lower figure, but nothing in that figure is binding and the true cost will be the actual costs incurred not figures bandied around in 2017. So it's no skin off the EU's nose to cut Britain some slack on this even if privately many expect the final figure to be quite a bit higher.
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  #14746  
Old 11.12.2017, 09:35 AM
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that sounds like the comments i'm talking about but its a bit like saying i was in the best of health, even though i was riddled with cancer.
plus the question was when was America last great, so that skips over a ton plus other chances for this greatness and it was asked by a black person, so is it a shot or ignorance.

theres this idea in the States that they can just change history and that the civil war wasn't mainly about slavery, from certain types.

now where this lies between ignorance and hate, is a key question. but going by the views this man seems to hold i know which one i think its closer too.
What you come back to is "what do you mean by greatness?".

If a country has to be morally spotless in order to be great, I would suggest no country has ever qualified. So that cannot be it, because it is avoiding the answer really, by imposing an impossible condition.

If slavery disqualifies a country from greatness then Rome was never great. Or Athens, or Ancient Egypt - in fact you are bringing the bar for greatness forward to about the 19th Century, and then there are lots of ways countries are conspicuously mean to people without enslaving them.

I think that if you look at any period of a Nations history that might contend for greatness, you will find something immoral to quibble about. Whether it is the Battle of Britain (colonialism), the US essentially winning WW2 (Hiroshima, Nagasaki).. there is always something.

Moore wasn't talking about this stuff anyway really, he talking about the family - not that he was making much sense. I don't think families have changed much since forever, because people haven't changed much. Out of all the things that do change in society, I suspect the way families work (or don't work!) has changed the least.
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  #14747  
Old 11.12.2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by davidjones178@hotmail.co.uk View Post
What you come back to is "what do you mean by greatness?".

If a country has to be morally spotless in order to be great, I would suggest no country has ever qualified. So that cannot be it, because it is avoiding the answer really, by imposing an impossible condition.

If slavery disqualifies a country from greatness then Rome was never great. Or Athens, or Ancient Egypt - in fact you are bringing the bar for greatness forward to about the 19th Century, and then there are lots of ways countries are conspicuously mean to people without enslaving them.

I think that if you look at any period of a Nations history that might contend for greatness, you will find something immoral to quibble about. Whether it is the Battle of Britain (colonialism), the US essentially winning WW2 (Hiroshima, Nagasaki).. there is always something.

Moore wasn't talking about this stuff anyway really, he talking about the family - not that he was making much sense. I don't think families have changed much since forever, because people haven't changed much. Out of all the things that do change in society, I suspect the way families work (or don't work!) has changed the least.

well those are stains.

for me the focus would be on the last time.

surely all the huge improvements since then have made them great in more recent times.

as you say most periods have issues and now theres plenty too.

he wouldn't even see Trump as a reason not to say now.
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  #14748  
Old 11.12.2017, 06:35 PM
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so can anyone explain Labours new idea of replacing the current "free movement of people" with the new "easy movement of people".
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  #14749  
Old 11.12.2017, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by goodkarma84 View Post
well those are stains.

for me the focus would be on the last time.

surely all the huge improvements since then have made them great in more recent times.

as you say most periods have issues and now theres plenty too.

he wouldn't even see Trump as a reason not to say now.
The wish to define periods of greatness is probably just forlorn.

Rather than countries being great, or enduring periods of greatness, I suppose they do great things - and that these things are chiefly considered great by their own people - and not always then by all of them.

This would be why periods of war and conquest seem to dominate contentions for greatness, at least according to the victors!

As you suggest, this does mean that Trump may indeed succeed in "making America great again", at least in the eyes of his own supporters, as long as he keeps playing the hick.
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  #14750  
Old 12.12.2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by lee harris 10 View Post
so can anyone explain Labours new idea of replacing the current "free movement of people" with the new "easy movement of people".
I believe it was ‘easy movement of workers’ which is an important difference, but that’s beside the point.

Labour know that the tories have blown Brexit, the public are turning against Brexit (if they were ever for it) and the responsible people in labour (that is, not momentum) are sewing the seeds for a potential about-turn.

At long last, the adults are turning up to deal with this.
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