Politics - Page 1639 - NFL UK Forums
NFL UK Mobile Logo
Go Back   NFL UK Forums > Miscellaneous > Off-Topic - Entertainment/News

  #16381  
Old 28.05.2019, 10:06 PM
European Bob's Avatar
European Bob European Bob is offline
MVP
 
Join Date: 11.01.2012
Posts: 8,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterHayes View Post
An interesting weekend.

What surprised me the most was the 37% turnout? Wasn't this going to be the mother of all EU Parliamentary Elections? 2% more than the last one that most people didn't even know was happening and absolutely no one cared about anyway?

Truthfully, who cares who won this one? It's meaningless. Hardly anyone voted, 1 party actually stood on a 'we have no policy' ticket like something out of the Monster Raving Loony Party and 2 others had no manifesto and made no attempt to play at all. It also looks as though as many as 2 million people eligible to vote couldn't actually do it?

Never-the-less the other big surprise for me is the perpetuation of the pro Brexit narrative?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48417228

Remain parties (those clearly campaigning to stay in the EU) got 40% of the vote, those clearly advocating out got 35%? No doubt the BBC would publish this though right?

What a shambles. To top it all you then get Nigel Farage suggesting he now has a mandate to sit in on the Brexit talks!? Can you imagine??

Seriously, you could not make it up. Every time I think we've extended the idea of political farce about as far as is remotely possible, something else happens.
I think the most incredible thing for me is what has happened to the support for Brexit as the the things underpinning it has one by one been exposed to be lies or inaccuracies. The great deal Boris Johnson promised, the £350m for the NHS, the Brexit dividend, continued single market access, dictating the terms, German car markers stepping in to force the EU’s hand, the fact that businesses won’t keep investing here or will move their investments elsewhere. Among the white population at least, there seems to be little to suggest that anyone has looked at all these lies they were told and has changed their mind. They’ve changed their story (I.e. claiming they wanted no deal or WTO all along despite the fact nobody was talking about this in 2016, not Farage, not Boris, nobody). But they’re just dug in, doubled down. Revisionist history, and a willingness to defend the snake oil salesmen who peddled the lies they swallowed rather than be angry with them for doing so. It is almost cult or religion like. Facts don’t matter. It’s dogmatic unquestioning belief. I think a large part of this is most of the newspapers are owned or edited by Leave supporting millionaires or billionaires (the elite). The Daily Express for example doesn’t even try to offer balanced coverage, it’s a Brexit cheerleader now rather than a place to get proper news coverage.

Anecdotally, I’ve heard among British Asians who voted Leave there has been a much bigger shift in view, but there are no hard stats to back that up, it’s just what I’ve heard from door knockers. Most likely they have realised that hostile views a lot of Brexit voters hold towards Poles and Bulgarians, surprise surprise, they hold against people from non-white, non-European origin people too.

I think the same phenomenon is occurring in the US. Trump hasn’t done much of what he promised prior to election but facts don’t matter anymore and his voters will keep backing him regardless.
Reply With Quote
  #16382  
Old 29.05.2019, 12:12 AM
European Bob's Avatar
European Bob European Bob is offline
MVP
 
Join Date: 11.01.2012
Posts: 8,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee harris 10 View Post
but the claims that somehow conservatives/Labour have not a stated opinion on Leaving the EU to somehow claim that Remain was the big winner on Sunday misses out those annoying facts they have both said they want to complete Brexit.

heck both parties just spent 6 weeks in talks trying to find a deal that would pass in the commons so yes they may not be no deal hard leave but they are still about Leaving.
Personally I don't think a lot of Labour voters (even voters last week) are voting Labour because they want to leave, though. I think they're voting Labour because they are loyal to Labour. Take where I live as a case in point. Labour area and has been for a long time. It voted 74% Remain in 2016 - one of the top 10 highest Remain votes. In the 2017 General Election, the Labour vote goes up, not down. My MP's majority is nearly 35,000. People vote Labour, not Lib Dem. Do I think this is because they wanted to leave the EU? Not a chance. They were showing they were solidly against the Tories. As it happens, my MP has been consistently anti-Brexit anyway, even so far as voting against triggering Article 50. So round here there is no way you can say a vote for Labour was a vote for Brexit.

Last week, the Lib Dems won in our borough even though both Labour MPs are pro-Remain and both have large majorities. But Labour still did very well here - they came 2nd, but a close 2nd - there were about 700 votes in it, they each got just over 22,000. The Greens got 13,000 odd, the Brexit party 5,000-odd, Change UK 3,800 and the Tories 2,300. As we've already said, very few people have changed their mind on Brexit. There is no way that you can say 22,000 people voted Labour here because they want to leave the EU, when the referendum result here was 74-26. People round here vote Labour. Some have decided to stop backing the party this time over the referendum issue (probably wary of people like you wrongly trying to claim they were saying they wanted to leave), but a lot of others continued to vote Labour and will likely always vote Labour. But that doesn't mean they support Brexit or wouldn't favour a referendum or vote Remain in said referendum.

There are people who voted both Conservative and Labour who would want another referendum. What we don't know is how many. What we can say is that 40% voted for parties that clearly back a referendum and it's logical to think that this was their main reason for doing so given the current climate. 35% odd clearly do not want one, hence voting for Brexit party or UKIP. The rest are unclear; they are not all - or even majority - people who don't want one.

The reality is that if Brexit backers were confident of winning another referendum they would be all in on it. Plenty of them had supported the idea of a 2nd referendum in previous years. The reason they don't want one is that they are terrified that it might have slipped away. The problem with 52-48 is that even if most of your supporters are ideologues and post-truthers, it does not take much of a shift to tip the balance. 1 in 13 Brexit voters from 2016 changing their mind makes it 48-52, forgetting things like death by demographics or the number of non-UK EU nationals in 2016 who would be able to vote in 2019 having felt like they have no choice but to take up British citizenship.
Reply With Quote
  #16383  
Old 29.05.2019, 09:08 AM
LesterHayes's Avatar
LesterHayes LesterHayes is offline
All Pro
 
Join Date: 21.08.2012
Posts: 3,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lee harris 10 View Post
how is there "support" for a 2nd vote,think that 60% voted for parties NOT campaigning directly for another referendum so is somehow 40% more than 60% now......
Really? How do you get those numbers?

Rounding out the numbers, Brexit and UKIP got 35%. Lib Dems, Change UK, SNP and Welsh Nats got 40%. The remaining (no pun intended) 15% voted for Tories & Labour. That's pretty unequivocal isn't it? 40% of people who voted, voted for parties that CLEARLY stood on a Remain ticket. 35% of people who voted, voted for parties that CLEARLY stood on a Leave ticket. Who knows what Labour are standing on with regards to Brexit and the Tories are equally all over the place. No one said anything about a 2nd vote?

How do you look at the same information and get 60%?


Quote:
Originally Posted by European Bob View Post
But they’re just dug in, doubled down. Revisionist history, and a willingness to defend the snake oil salesmen who peddled the lies they swallowed rather than be angry with them for doing so. It is almost cult or religion like. Facts don’t matter. It’s dogmatic unquestioning belief.
Oh, that's how.

Lee, you are the poster boy for typical Leave voter. Facts? They're for the birds! I'll just keep on banging my Leave drum and hopefully it'll be so loud that no one can hear anything else.
Reply With Quote
  #16384  
Old 29.05.2019, 11:12 AM
LesterHayes's Avatar
LesterHayes LesterHayes is offline
All Pro
 
Join Date: 21.08.2012
Posts: 3,179
Default

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ccusation.html

Really don't know what to think of this? Yes, it's a pro remain stunt, that's obviously the case but it's also true isn't it? He did mislead people with this nonsense didn't he? Will they be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he actually knew this though? I think he did but it's unlikely it can be proven.

Not exactly the sort of press you want in the run up to a leadership bid though is it?

Last edited by LesterHayes; 29.05.2019 at 11:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16385  
Old 29.05.2019, 01:41 PM
goodkarma84's Avatar
goodkarma84 goodkarma84 is offline
GOAT
 
Join Date: 15.09.2008
Posts: 27,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterHayes View Post
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ccusation.html

Really don't know what to think of this? Yes, it's a pro remain stunt, that's obviously the case but it's also true isn't it? He did mislead people with this nonsense didn't he? Will they be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he actually knew this though? I think he did but it's unlikely it can be proven.

Not exactly the sort of press you want in the run up to a leadership bid though is it?

worth a shot.
Reply With Quote
  #16386  
Old 29.05.2019, 06:01 PM
lee harris 10's Avatar
lee harris 10 lee harris 10 is offline
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: 05.09.2010
Posts: 10,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterHayes View Post
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ccusation.html

Really don't know what to think of this? Yes, it's a pro remain stunt, that's obviously the case but it's also true isn't it? He did mislead people with this nonsense didn't he? Will they be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he actually knew this though? I think he did but it's unlikely it can be proven.

Not exactly the sort of press you want in the run up to a leadership bid though is it?
on the 2nd point this will almost definetly help BoJo with the grass routes supporters so no damage there

but how a judge has allowed this is a joke,Marcus Ball when he started his crowdfunding specifically said it was to stop Brexit by some means so now to claim its just about cleaning up politics by calling out mis-leading information but only going after 1 person saying something in a referendum where say someone also claimed leaving would cost 500,000 jobs(George Osbourne) or if we left there would have to be an immediate special budget(George again) shows this is remainers using "Lawfare" and the courts going along with it.
Reply With Quote
  #16387  
Old 29.05.2019, 06:04 PM
Tamar Raider's Avatar
Tamar Raider Tamar Raider is offline
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: 12.08.2013
Posts: 973
Default

I see various Conservative MP's are on TV saying the courts should stay out of politics, it's almost like they are worried he might be found guilty of the charge of misconduct in a public office, what's the maximum sentence if he is found guilty?
Reply With Quote
  #16388  
Old 29.05.2019, 06:05 PM
goodkarma84's Avatar
goodkarma84 goodkarma84 is offline
GOAT
 
Join Date: 15.09.2008
Posts: 27,926
Default

oh Mr Mueller






Quote:
Originally Posted by lee harris 10 View Post
on the 2nd point this will almost definetly help BoJo with the grass routes supporters so no damage there

but how a judge has allowed this is a joke,Marcus Ball when he started his crowdfunding specifically said it was to stop Brexit by some means so now to claim its just about cleaning up politics by calling out mis-leading information but only going after 1 person saying something in a referendum where say someone also claimed leaving would cost 500,000 jobs(George Osbourne) or if we left there would have to be an immediate special budget(George again) shows this is remainers using "Lawfare" and the courts going along with it.



ah see you seem to be calling out predictions and projections.


the lie here was not only on the money possibly going to the NHS but the amount claimed going to the EU.
Reply With Quote
  #16389  
Old 29.05.2019, 07:30 PM
European Bob's Avatar
European Bob European Bob is offline
MVP
 
Join Date: 11.01.2012
Posts: 8,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterHayes View Post
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ccusation.html

Really don't know what to think of this? Yes, it's a pro remain stunt, that's obviously the case but it's also true isn't it? He did mislead people with this nonsense didn't he? Will they be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he actually knew this though? I think he did but it's unlikely it can be proven.

Not exactly the sort of press you want in the run up to a leadership bid though is it?
I dunno, given the state of the Tory party unicornists, maybe it is!
Reply With Quote
  #16390  
Old 29.05.2019, 07:32 PM
European Bob's Avatar
European Bob European Bob is offline
MVP
 
Join Date: 11.01.2012
Posts: 8,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamar Raider View Post
I see various Conservative MP's are on TV saying the courts should stay out of politics, it's almost like they are worried he might be found guilty of the charge of misconduct in a public office, what's the maximum sentence if he is found guilty?
Yes. More to the point, politicians should stay out of the courts!

Of some comfort to Brexiters will be that good old British courts will decide this, the kind of courts they claimed had no say in things anymore because of the ECJ. They were delighted at the High Court and Supreme Court rulings on parliament and Article 50 too, I seem to recall

Last edited by European Bob; 29.05.2019 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +0. The time now is 01:51 PM.