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Old 11.03.2009, 06:53 PM
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Default Religion - Good or Bad?

Too continue the debate from the previous thread in an on topic area.

https://forum.nfluk.com/showthread.php?t=41965&page=3

This is an interesting topic of discussion so i urge posters to read through posts so that they try not to offend people and get the thread closed.
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Old 11.03.2009, 07:03 PM
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Ill post my reply to your last comment here...

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Originally Posted by towen5 View Post
I too shared that view until i read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins a very well respected author and scientist at Oxford University.

I had the very debate with my own father about the ten commandments and how they urge people to the right thing. But id argue that they also urged people to **** and pillage most of the globe during the crusades and colonial eras. The bible has many gruesome chapters that people don't read about that encourage murder if it is for a 'righteous' cause.

If someone requires faith to lead such a life then its a very sad situation. Why should faith be required for people to do the right thing? At the same time, why has faith played a significant part of most of the terrible atrocities carried out in the past and present?
I'll admit that I haven't really ever researched the Bible extensively, or religion as a whole. The God Delusion is a book I probably will read in time, it does look like a very interesting read

I personally dont see how any of the ten commandments encourage the evil that was carried out during the Crusades. I cant really see how anyone can interpret them as anything other than trying to encourage good in the world. I have heard of some gruesome passages in the Bible, I remember one that said something like "thou shalt utterly destroy them, and the Lord God shall show no mercy" or something along those lines. Although, most of these passages seem to be from the Old Testament and a lot of Christians feel that the New Testament is much more tolerant and moderate

Well, as an example, there are a lot of people who turn to religion because they want drection in their life, and they feel religion their encouragement to do good in the world. There are also cases of ex-criminals who become completely different people when they find religion
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Old 11.03.2009, 07:11 PM
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There are also many many reports of criminals, acting in a criminal fashion in the name of their religion. From suicide bombers to 'righteous' massacres. See the film "Se7en" as an example of strong religious man determined to clease the world. These are obviously extreme examples and its a recurring theme that its the extreme followers that seem to cause the most problems. But i would argue that maybe thats because they study the religions much more than a casual follower. As i said the Bible has many gruesome chapters where 'heros' are tested by being told to murder neighbouring tribes. Not to mention that some forms of the Quaran state that it is legal to beat your wife and it is actively encouraged that women are lesser beings.

As for the commandments and crusades that is my fault, i like others, often use them as a example of christianity as a whole.
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Old 11.03.2009, 07:13 PM
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I also strongly recommend you do read 'The God Delusion' whenever you get the chance. As the book states, one should be able to read a book like that and still follow the faith to consider themselves true believers, many denouce the book without reading it because they are scared it will change their views.

I spent my whole teenage life caught between an atheist mother and a catholic father and this book felt like a revelation and allowed me to make my own decisions on the matter and it will always be close to my heart.
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Old 11.03.2009, 07:42 PM
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i must say i have no problem with other peoples beliefs (apart from extremists)

however...it is now getting out of hand in this country e.g. i heard a rumour that there was gonna be a possible issue of displaying no religious objects/symbols outside...they would have to be kept indoors, i mean what about a war memorial for example...the cross would have to be taken off? (i know this almost definate won't happen)
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Old 11.03.2009, 08:02 PM
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It is worth noting that any historical study of the time of the Crusades yields the fact that religion had very little to ultimately do with them. Many Kings and rulers, including plenty of early Popes were more than slightly questionable in their piety. The Crusades were not about religion - merely carried out on the pretext of religion because it made a convinent excuse that wasn't too politically unpalatable. The real reason was twofold, the acciqusition of large amounts of gold, valuable artifacts and jewellry with a high value, and to increase the power, influence and control of the states "crusading."

The reminder is that religion is a double-edged sword. Just because the original intention of religious text is one of peace and goodness doesn't mean it'll follow through in practice - history is rife with people who's tried to twist religion and use it as a shield for their actions. There are very, very few instances when what they've been claiming to be justifiably doing is the intention of said religion.

Religion is like political representation. Unquestioned and unobserved unfortunatly it can be a force for evil, but this doesn't mean that it is inherently evil itself and shouldn't be painted as such.
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Old 11.03.2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by towen5 View Post
I also strongly recommend you do read 'The God Delusion' whenever you get the chance. As the book states, one should be able to read a book like that and still follow the faith to consider themselves true believers, many denouce the book without reading it because they are scared it will change their views.

I spent my whole teenage life caught between an atheist mother and a catholic father and this book felt like a revelation and allowed me to make my own decisions on the matter and it will always be close to my heart.
That was always why I've been hesitant to read it in the past. I've been worrited that may hopes of a God existing would be dashed when reading it. Now, Im more interested in trying to find the truth, although I personally dont think there will ever be a time, when someone can conclusively prove that there is no higher being at all

I've always thought it possible that someone or something could be responsible for us all being here, but something I've always struggled with is the idea of heaven and hell, or any afterlife for that matter. It doesnt seem feasible to me that one could just live immortally in a perfect world. How can anything just go on forever and ever?

Something, I find interesting, is how people can interpret the Bible and Christianity in so many different ways. If you look at people like Hitler, he said he thought he was doing the work of God (although I dont see how he thought that when Jesus was a Jew, and with writings in the Bible such as "love thy neighbour"), although most Christian preachers hail Christianity as the religion of love of all people

While looking for an ebook of the God Delsuion, I stumbled across this http://www.free-press-release.com/ne...161468752.html
Apparently a guys written a book being described as the "alternative to The God Delsuion" and claiming that: "Science

and Religion are partners in a fascinating and secret history of Earth. The war between these two sources of understanding is an illusion. The false beliefs of religion

are fear based creations of an ancient lost science and of great benefit to the advancement of scientific knowledge. Science is not religion's arch enemy. In fact, science is religion's only promise of salvation."

Interestingly, it seems he tries to explain his theory through a fictional story. You can actually read it for free here http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b...result#PPA7,M1

I might also try reading the Dawkins Delusion totry and get the viewpoint of a Christian as well. Looks like im going to have quite a lot of reading to do in the next few months

Last edited by BritishBronco; 11.03.2009 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 11.03.2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagunium View Post
It is worth noting that any historical study of the time of the Crusades yields the fact that religion had very little to ultimately do with them. Many Kings and rulers, including plenty of early Popes were more than slightly questionable in their piety. The Crusades were not about religion - merely carried out on the pretext of religion because it made a convinent excuse that wasn't too politically unpalatable. The real reason was twofold, the acciqusition of large amounts of gold, valuable artifacts and jewellry with a high value, and to increase the power, influence and control of the states "crusading."

The reminder is that religion is a double-edged sword. Just because the original intention of religious text is one of peace and goodness doesn't mean it'll follow through in practice - history is rife with people who's tried to twist religion and use it as a shield for their actions. There are very, very few instances when what they've been claiming to be justifiably doing is the intention of said religion.

Religion is like political representation. Unquestioned and unobserved unfortunatly it can be a force for evil, but this doesn't mean that it is inherently evil itself and shouldn't be painted as such.
Good post.
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Old 11.03.2009, 10:35 PM
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In my humble opinion religion, organized religion, is a bad thing. It is a panacea for those among us who are frightened at the enormity of the prospect that everything we know and the whole of human history and existance might just be an accident. There is as real a possibility that we simply switch off at death as there is a possibilty of "something better".
Personally, I think religion was invented by humans who could not explain the world, but could see what was good and bad within it and invented the concept of gods to explain the good, and devils and demons to explain the bad...or to excuse it. I'm no expert, but to me, Christians, Jews and Muslims seem to agree on a monotheistic point of view and disagree only on who the delivery boy was. I'm not sure about Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists, Buddhists, or Confucionists. In any event, all of them were created thousands of years ago by people living in a very different world from the one we inhabit today. I think it's a great folly to pour all of one's faith into words set down by people who would regard the average person of today, with his Ipod and Iphone as a demon from hell or a sorcerer. To me the ultmimate repudiation of organized religion is the temerity of claiming the last word on god. They are right and everyone else is wrong. Their religion is the WORD of GOD! It would be wise of them to remember that most people today refer to the religions of the Romans, Greeks, Mayans, and Nor***** as mythology. In a couple more thousand years, if we last that long, how much would you wager that those people won't regard the religions of today as so much mythology?
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Old 11.03.2009, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boodah View Post
In my humble opinion religion, organized religion, is a bad thing. It is a panacea for those among us who are frightened at the enormity of the prospect that everything we know and the whole of human history and existance might just be an accident. There is as real a possibility that we simply switch off at death as there is a possibilty of "something better".
Personally, I think religion was invented by humans who could not explain the world, but could see what was good and bad within it and invented the concept of gods to explain the good, and devils and demons to explain the bad...or to excuse it. I'm no expert, but to me, Christians, Jews and Muslims seem to agree on a monotheistic point of view and disagree only on who the delivery boy was. I'm not sure about Hindus, Sikhs, Taoists, Buddhists, or Confucionists. In any event, all of them were created thousands of years ago by people living in a very different world from the one we inhabit today. I think it's a great folly to pour all of one's faith into words set down by people who would regard the average person of today, with his Ipod and Iphone as a demon from hell or a sorcerer. To me the ultmimate repudiation of organized religion is the temerity of claiming the last word on god. They are right and everyone else is wrong. Their religion is the WORD of GOD! It would be wise of them to remember that most people today refer to the religions of the Romans, Greeks, Mayans, and Nor***** as mythology. In a couple more thousand years, if we last that long, how much would you wager that those people won't regard the religions of today as so much mythology?
How in the world is N.O.R.S.E.M.E.N a word that needs censoring?
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