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  #11  
Old 11.03.2009, 10:46 PM
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Because of s,emen
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  #12  
Old 11.03.2009, 11:41 PM
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I am not a religious man but I have a belief in a higher power. . God.
I dont subscribe to the theory of evolution for me it does not work.
I prefer to believe we were here by design than by accident and that someone out there cares for us than just a blackness of void. .

so. .I attended a church meeting some time ago and this was the teaching that day. . It struck me and so I took the notes away with me. . here they are. .

How do we/I know God exists

An encounter with God can transcend arguments e.g. account of man born blind in John 9.

Our desire for those who do not yet know the Lord is that they would encounter him, possibly through us - in meetings or wherever we are.

God gives this promise: "If you seek him, he will be found by you". But, of course, many do not seek him because they don't believe he exists. Heb 11.6. Faith is pleasing to God because it leads to encounter with God and relationship with him, the enjoyment of his presence and love, and that is what God ,desires. And the basic level of faith is to believe that he exists.
One major problem: the Bible says that God is Spirit. Human beings were made with spirits so that we could fellowship with God. And we were also made with physical bodies so that we could live in this beautiful physical
universe that he created for us. However, the fall of the first humans (Adam and Eve - our ancestors) into disobedience, caused their spirits, and those of their descendants, to become dormant, such that people are no longer
born with the same spiritual awareness of God but instead rely almost entirely on the input from their 5 physical senses and what their darkened minds make of that input. This changes when they put their trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and are "born again" or "re-awakened" spiritually. But before then, they are limited. So, how are they going to believe that God exists?
Because of his wonderful grace, God has revealed himself in ways that people can appreciate even with their physical senses and their minds. Three main ways:

1. In his creation.
2. In the Bible - a collection of books which were inspired by God.
3. In his Son, Jesus Christ.
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1.20
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." Psalm 19.1

Four reasons, deduced from creation, to believe that God exists.


1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. "What caused that bang?" you say. "Nothing" I reply "it just happened". Would you accept that? No!

The universe began to exist. This seems to be accepted by the vast majority of scientists. Stephen Hawking has said, "Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang."
Therefore the universe has a cause This cause has to be an uncaused, always existing, timeless, immaterial being who freely chose to create the universe.
The alternative explanations of an atheist are:
(1) that the universe came from nothing by nothing or
(2) that the universe has always existed (but time must have had a beginning since there cannot have been an infinite number of
moments before today otherwise today would never have come.)

2. The fine tuning of the universe is due to either law or chance or design.
It is not due to law because it is not physically necessary that it be like it is or physically impossible that it could have been different.
It is not due to chance - too improbable. During the last 30 years or so, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends on a complex and delicate balance of initial conditions when the universe came
into being. Although they might have believed in the past that whatever the initial conditions of the universe, eventually intelligent life might evolve, now it is realised that it depends on the initial conditions being fine-tuned to
a degree that is incomprehensible and incalculable. However, one physicist has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for later star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes.

3. Amazing design in the universe including irreducible complexity. Two examples:
(1) Proteins have never been observed to occur naturally, even in a laboratory test tube. Functioning cells are needed to make proteins but it
is proteins that make cells function.
(2) Where did the ability to replicate come from in living beings? It could not
have been the result of evolution because evolution requires replication.
There are many other examples.

4. There are absolute moral laws. We cannot measure the progress of society (or lack of it) unless there is a standard outside society by which we can measure it. If there is no objective moral law then morality just comes
down to personal preferences and Adolf Hitler was no worse than Mother Teresa and torturing babies just for fun is not absolutely wrong. Even if you only acknowledge one absolute moral law then, logically, you have to
acknowledge that there is an absolute moral lawgiver.
That lawgiver, that basis for morality, cannot be dependent on another but must be a self-existent, perfectly good being ... God. See Romans 2. 14 & 15.
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  #13  
Old 12.03.2009, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
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I dont subscribe to the theory of evolution for me it does not work.
Nice earings Sy!


In all seriousness im a christian that does actually believe in evolution as i also consider myself a student of science all be it computer science lol

I think syborgs makes some vaild points here but i can understand towens objections to some of the horrible things people do in the name of religion and dawkins portrays his arguments very well, though the book is really boring to read as it is written like a science paper!

I preffered his genetics books personally!
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  #14  
Old 12.03.2009, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PheonixCharlie View Post
Nice earings Sy!


In all seriousness im a christian that does actually believe in evolution as i also consider myself a student of science all be it computer science lol

I think syborgs makes some vaild points here but i can understand towens objections to some of the horrible things people do in the name of religion and dawkins portrays his arguments very well, though the book is really boring to read as it is written like a science paper!

I preffered his genetics books personally!
So let me get this straight, your a Christian who believes in Evolution ?

Plus your a student of science who finds reading science papers boring ?

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  #15  
Old 12.03.2009, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PheonixCharlie View Post
Nice earings Sy!


In all seriousness im a christian that does actually believe in evolution as i also consider myself a student of science all be it computer science lol

I think syborgs makes some vaild points here but i can understand towens objections to some of the horrible things people do in the name of religion and dawkins portrays his arguments very well, though the book is really boring to read as it is written like a science paper!

I preffered his genetics books personally!

People will always want power over others or want what they have and unrighteous fear or conquering them is a way to acheive this. . the 'in the name of religion' argument works because it can justify a person with no more proof than looking holy and waving the bible about quoting versus out of the context in which they were written. .Greek and Hebrew are much more expressive languages than English and so we can mis interperet a verse due to our lack of words to explain something written in those languages. .

Religion makes war due to lack of understanding and mans greed to have what others have. .but to justify it. .God is a good scapegoat because unlike you he will not turn up at court and give evidence. . all he needs to say is already in his book. . we just need to understand it better. .

Christianity teaches creationism. .. not evolution. .??
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  #16  
Old 12.03.2009, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Spadesaregood View Post
So let me get this straight, your a Christian who believes in Evolution ?

Plus your a student of science who finds reading science papers boring ?

I see evolution as a method of god, i dont really see the problem with it! The creation story in the bible actually follows the path of evolution roughly! It's not all meant to be taken literally in my opinion!

And hell yes science papers are boring, if its boring science!
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  #17  
Old 12.03.2009, 01:01 AM
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Like PheonixCharlie above and as I've stated in other threads, I'm a theistic evolutionist myself and also believe in the Big Bang, although as a creation of God. The pattern of events that one sees in Genesis would actually be the same as scientifically argued, accepting that "On the next day" can equate to "and then what happened was." I admit this does call an interpretive nature into question and I would be lying if I didn't ponder that fact. However I do find that this fact actually is something I find immensely faith-reinforcing - the fact that as our knowledge of science and phenoma increases, the biblical meaning remains clear when understood within the context of the present day.

I personally find the religion and science debate somewhat irrelevant as a result. I understand the context of it and why it happened - looking back to Galileo, Darwin and the Enlightenment generally the actions of Churches as rejecting and in some cases punishing those who produce what is now accepted scientific theory is a grave mistake, and I can fully understand why the science community adapted a hostile attitude to religion as a result. One of my main criticisms even of modern organized religion is that it is quick to castigate ideas, yet slow to debate against them and logically dissect them.

On Dawkins I do find him exceptionally overrated - and whilst he is a fine microbiologist he certinatly does not deserve his labeling as a rationalist, as he makes his own "leaps of faith" within his assessment in assuming causality between certain things. His work should be viewed as an interesting critique of the "watchmaker" theory of design with purpose but little more beyond this. I personally find it quite interesting how Dawkins has swung between being very Christian and very atheist at differing points throughout his career.
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  #18  
Old 12.03.2009, 06:12 PM
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Where to start ?

I am a Christian ........ I regularly attend a Church of England church , and my son is in the choir .

Religion ....good or bad ? Definitely good .

Extremists who twist religion to their own requirements , bad .

I'm not an expert on Christianity , let alone other religions , but from what I do know , the major religions of this world , and I imagine the minor ones too , all preach the virtues of living a "good" life . Love , forgiveness , helping each other , loyalty , truth , etc etc ; what most people would see as the foundation of a peaceful , happy and pleasant world are found in religion .

Yes , there are "horror" stories in the Old Testament , and many examples throughout history of men doing evil deeds in the name of their religion , but the central message of all religions is positive .

Don't blame religion for the evil that men do .

As for the proof of God , well the whole idea is you need faith . Once you have it , the proof follows . I won't go into any details , because it's personal , but there have been too many times when I've prayed for help or guidance , and my prayers have been answered in such a specific way , that to my mind , it can't be coincidence .
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  #19  
Old 14.03.2009, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PheonixCharlie View Post
I see evolution as a method of god, i dont really see the problem with it! The creation story in the bible actually follows the path of evolution roughly! It's not all meant to be taken literally in my opinion!

And hell yes science papers are boring, if its boring science!
Christianity can fit with evolution, even the Pope sees that there is some truth in it, the story of creation is more to teach us about good and evil. Any like between the creation story and evolution is obviously pure coincidence
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  #20  
Old 14.03.2009, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack1 View Post
Christianity can fit with evolution, even the Pope sees that there is some truth in it, the story of creation is more to teach us about good and evil. Any like between the creation story and evolution is obviously pure coincidence
Evolution. .

I have some questions about evolution:

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?

2. Where did matter come from?

3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?

5. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

8. With what did the first cell capable of s exual reproduction reproduce?

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?

14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it?
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