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Old 02.12.2012, 09:10 PM
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Default that has to be the worst I have seen them play

ZERO offence its time for Whiz to go he's lead us down a dead end he couldnt spot a QB if his job depended on it. if he had a HOFer on the roster he would name the other guy starter

that was embarrassing to watch the line held up pretty well but the QB play was monumentally '#@~@~@# bad
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Old 03.12.2012, 02:34 AM
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What happens if Kolb comes back and looks like a starting level QB? Does the poor season just get put down to injuries? I'm no Whiz fan but it's not his fault he's got no tackles, poor running backs and no starting QB. He could've done a much better job coaching the other two up.
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Old 03.12.2012, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gengar View Post
What happens if Kolb comes back and looks like a starting level QB? Does the poor season just get put down to injuries? I'm no Whiz fan but it's not his fault he's got no tackles, poor running backs and no starting QB. He could've done a much better job coaching the other two up.
You have to remember that Kolb was designated the backup by Whiz
Skelton was the guy he gave the starting job to. Thats the same Skelton who has been benched for Lindley....whats that say about Whizs talent evaluation process?
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Old 03.12.2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Gengar View Post
What happens if Kolb comes back and looks like a starting level QB? Does the poor season just get put down to injuries? I'm no Whiz fan but it's not his fault he's got no tackles, poor running backs and no starting QB. He could've done a much better job coaching the other two up.
I am completely behind Whiz. I dont understand the calls for his head at all.

But this has been a trying year. The stomach churning denial of O line incompetency in the draft, by ignoring the best guard in the draft, and taking a headcase at WR instead, which still angers me. To the head scrathingly bad decision to pick Skelton ahead of kolb in Game 1.

BUT

It isnt like he isnt as much responsible for the best D the Cards have had in living memory, as much as the worst Offense in memory. And it isnt like picking a Qb is just a simple job of going on the QB.COM website, and picking from the list on there. Ask Miami how it has been since Marino retired. Ask the Jets why they traded up to get Sanchez.
While I was strictly in the Orton camp before the Cards traded for Kolb. You have to see thathat the Front Office were doing their utmost to try to get a competent QB.

The Carinals fortunes were always going to rest on the O line at least being OK. They have rarely got there, although Massie's experience is beginning to bear fruit. And as has been said many times, a team losing its starting LT, RT, RG and now the starting Centre, along with the #1 and #2 running backs, is always going to struggle.

I give Whiz one more year to get it right. this year has been horrible, but IMO I can see why.
Some people were excited about Lindley being picked. Probably the same people screaming for the coaches head as another pass sails Skelton-like 10 yards wide of Fitz.

It is horrible watching the cards right now. But I can see the shoots of a decent team. And I have to say that is down to Whiz. Floyd aside which was the worst pick since Buster Davis. I think Whiz has assembled a team on the cusp. Having a bad o line all go down, so even worse guys are blocking for sub standard QBs, is not what anyone wanted. But I still have the belief that the guy to sort it out is Whiz.

About the only concession I make to the guys calling for heads, is Miller (Who is gone for sure) and Russ Grimm.
I loved Grimm as a player. But Whiz has got to see that the O line needs a proper coach. not just a fella who was good playing on a good O line 30 years ago.
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Old 03.12.2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Soul View Post
I am completely behind Whiz. I dont understand the calls for his head at all.

But this has been a trying year. The stomach churning denial of O line incompetency in the draft, by ignoring the best guard in the draft, and taking a headcase at WR instead, which still angers me. To the head scrathingly bad decision to pick Skelton ahead of kolb in Game 1.

BUT

It isnt like he isnt as much responsible for the best D the Cards have had in living memory, as much as the worst Offense in memory. And it isnt like picking a Qb is just a simple job of going on the QB.COM website, and picking from the list on there. Ask Miami how it has been since Marino retired. Ask the Jets why they traded up to get Sanchez.
While I was strictly in the Orton camp before the Cards traded for Kolb. You have to see thathat the Front Office were doing their utmost to try to get a competent QB.

The Carinals fortunes were always going to rest on the O line at least being OK. They have rarely got there, although Massie's experience is beginning to bear fruit. And as has been said many times, a team losing its starting LT, RT, RG and now the starting Centre, along with the #1 and #2 running backs, is always going to struggle.

I give Whiz one more year to get it right. this year has been horrible, but IMO I can see why.
Some people were excited about Lindley being picked. Probably the same people screaming for the coaches head as another pass sails Skelton-like 10 yards wide of Fitz.

It is horrible watching the cards right now. But I can see the shoots of a decent team. And I have to say that is down to Whiz. Floyd aside which was the worst pick since Buster Davis. I think Whiz has assembled a team on the cusp. Having a bad o line all go down, so even worse guys are blocking for sub standard QBs, is not what anyone wanted. But I still have the belief that the guy to sort it out is Whiz.

About the only concession I make to the guys calling for heads, is Miller (Who is gone for sure) and Russ Grimm.
I loved Grimm as a player. But Whiz has got to see that the O line needs a proper coach. not just a fella who was good playing on a good O line 30 years ago.
Whilst what you say mostly makes a lot of sense, and we do have the making of a good team in a lot of areas, the vast majority of the time, how successful you are is going to be determined by what you can get from your QB and how you protect that QB.

Unfortunately for Whiz and Co., they have proven time and time again that they have little idea of what to look for in a QB, and what to do with them once they have them, how best to make them productive with their skillset, round peg, square hole anyone? No QB has joined this franchise in the whiz era and improved as a player, none. There are of course, as you say, no guarantees in finding the right guy behind center, but after 9 Qbs starting in the last 3 seasons, I have seen enough of the failed attempts by Whiz and the talent evaluators. I mean, does it not tell you that he really has no idea what he is doing with a QB when our starting QB for the year is now our 3rd string QB, somehow, behind Lindley who has been awful even for a rookie.

Again, you are right, injuries have really hurt this team, however, on the back of these injuries, I fail to see Whiz really attempting to alter his game plan to perhaps help these inexperienced, poorer players out, he simply rehashes the same thing week after week, watching it fail again and again.

The blind ignorance when it comes to ignoring the OL is now beyond a joke. There were signs that this team were nearly there at the back end of last year with the defense, and plenty of offensive weapons, yet we ignore the OL completely, a key area that would have improved us greatly. The man, if he cant see this, deserves to be fired, for that alone. Its clear what needs to be done too drastically improve the fortunes of this team. Draft some OL, high, then develop a QB behind them, be that Kolb or whoever.

You are right, this franchise is on the cusp, now lets not waste this chance and get someone in who get this franchise moving forward.

Also, if he really believe his, "We are starting Lindley to win now" comment, he is crazy. Skelton has been real poor this year, but not in the same league of poor as Lindley has been these last 3 games. I have no doubt in my mind that had Skelton still been playing and not Lindley we would be sat at 7-5 now having won the last 3 games.

Last edited by b182dammit; 03.12.2012 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03.12.2012, 03:36 PM
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I never bother with anything a coach says to the media. Certainly not just after a game. It is all a load of baloney, even when you agree with what they are saying.

I go back 2 weeks when I look to see if Whiz can change his game plan. He pulled Skelton after about 8 horrible throws. Last week he was hauled over the coals by Cards fans for replacing a Qb too quickly. This week EXACTLY the same people are hauling him over the coals for not acting at all. I find it baffling. To use an Americanism. He is 'hated' for acting, now he is hated for not acting. He'd have been hated for acting too soon or too late whatever he had done yesterday.

I do though agree that I thought he should have put Skelton in at some point in the 3rd quarter. But even when I was thinking that I was also thinking, what can Skelton do? I guess the coaches have seen his reaction to being benched, and don't think bringing him back is a good idea. Ever if they werent going to do it after Lindley's horror show.

I totally concede that the reason the Cards have Skelton and Lindley, and they had Max Hall is because the Front Office drafted 3 pretty dreadful QBs. And they had the awful Derek Anderson as they looked to react to losing Warner, and avoiding going with Leinart. That is a terrible terrible group of players there. BUT about the only chance the Cards had to get anyone else, other than in the draft, was to go for Orton. You may remember I was hoping Orton came ahead of Kolb. But looking at the O line play. Who knows. Orton could have missed more games than Kolb.

I still think there is an outside chance Kolb does OK with a run in the team, and somebody blocking occasionally.

If the Cards did ditch Whiz. I would expect at least 3 years waiting for the new guy to earn the hate of Cards fans while searching for the answer. I believe sticking with Whiz, could see the Cards in a position to challenge with one of the top college Left tackles on the line, being backed up by Potter (Who would probably start the first few games). And with a hopefully healthy Kolb, there is good reason to hope the Cards can go back to something like the 4-0 team that started the season. Rather than the injury hit mess that has evolved.

And if they did ditch him. Who would they get? The baord sweem to want Horton, who has never been a Head Coach. While I dont want to lose him, I dont think he is as 'hot' a prospect as many people seem to. I think that he is still in Arizona whether Whiz goes or not. I just dont think he is experienced enough to be a HC yet.

Last edited by Northern Soul; 03.12.2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 03.12.2012, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Soul View Post
I go back 2 weeks when I look to see if Whiz can change his game plan. He pulled Skelton after about 8 horrible throws. Last week he was hauled over the coals by Cards fans for replacing a Qb too quickly. This week EXACTLY the same people are hauling him over the coals for not acting at all. I find it baffling. To use an Americanism. He is 'hated' for acting, now he is hated for not acting. He'd have been hated for acting too soon or too late whatever he had done yesterday.
That is not a different plan, the plan remained the same, the personnel changed. In fact, that is the problem, different personnel require a different plan, especially at QB, and whiz does not seem to get this. We run the same things regardless of who is in there, be it Kurt Warner or Ryan Lindley. It will never work, but he cant grasp that. He thinks because it did work with Warner, it will work again...No, no it wont.

Lindley clearly is not ready, and Whiz made the change without much thought I believe, because he was angry in the moment against the Falcons and now he cant really go back on it.

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I do though agree that I thought he should have put Skelton in at some point in the 3rd quarter. But even when I was thinking that I was also thinking, what can Skelton do? I guess the coaches have seen his reaction to being benched, and don't think bringing him back is a good idea. Ever if they werent going to do it after Lindley's horror show.
That could be something to do with it, Skelton didn't really take the benching too well, and certainly does not seem keen on helping Lindley out. That said if he is really practicing what he preaches and people are being held accountable, we are trying to win now, it was clear Skelton gave us the best chance to do it.

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Originally Posted by Northern Soul View Post
I totally concede that the reason the Cards have Skelton and Lindley, and they had Max Hall is because the Front Office drafted 3 pretty dreadful QBs. And they had the awful Derek Anderson as they looked to react to losing Warner, and avoiding going with Leinart. That is a terrible terrible group of players there. BUT about the only chance the Cards had to get anyone else, other than in the draft, was to go for Orton. You may remember I was hoping Orton came ahead of Kolb. But looking at the O line play. Who knows. Orton could have missed more games than Kolb.
There were other ways we could have gone, Hasselback, Orton as you say, or drafted a guy. We never, we went into 3 seasons with awful QBs, behind an awful line. Once, you can let that slide, but its the same thing 3 years in a row, with no gradual improvement, no real signs that they are really willing to act to rectify the problem. I dont want to sit around and hope they eventually see the light and sort it out.

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I still think there is an outside chance Kolb does OK with a run in the team, and somebody blocking occasionally.
Kolb looked good this year, I was very impressed, and I think he could do ok, and thats why I said the key is sorting the line out first, before we think of what to do at QB. I do however think Kolbs time is up at the end of the year, he wont be a Cardinal next year, he is simply injured far too often. It is a shame, because his play had me a little bit excited at the start of the year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Soul View Post
If the Cards did ditch Whiz. I would expect at least 3 years waiting for the new guy to earn the hate of Cards fans while searching for the answer. I believe sticking with Whiz, could see the Cards in a position to challenge with one of the top college Left tackles on the line, being backed up by Potter (Who would probably start the first few games). And with a hopefully healthy Kolb, there is good reason to hope the Cards can go back to something like the 4-0 team that started the season. Rather than the injury hit mess that has evolved.

And if they did ditch him. Who would they get? The baord sweem to want Horton, who has never been a Head Coach. While I dont want to lose him, I dont think he is as 'hot' a prospect as many people seem to. I think that he is still in Arizona whether Whiz goes or not. I just dont think he is experienced enough to be a HC yet.
What you say right there, I am all for it, if we could keep whiz, have continuation, but seriously look at sorting the line out, getting some new coaches for the offensive side of the ball, I am all for it, Id be delighted. My concern though is that you could have said exactly the same 3 years ago, exactly, but nothing has changed, none of that has been done, it could have been sorted already. Would you really go into the draft confident with Whiz coaching and Graves having his say that we go OL in the 1st round, even the 1st 3 rounds? I worry, based on previous, they wont, and its another year wasted.

I agree with you on Horton, I am not sure he is ready for the jump, he should stick to what he is good at for now. honestly I do not know who we go with, I just know we cant continue to keep making these same mistakes week after week, year after year.
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Old 03.12.2012, 07:23 PM
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interesting comments from both of you. heres my random thoughts.

I wanted Orton we got Kolb and as I said after rewatching all of last years games it became obvious that Kolb was by far better than Skelton who couldnt hit a barn door with a shotgun 3 foot away. Problem is he (Kolb) has injury proneness...(is proneness a word?? theres no red line under it...)
So to be honest I'm not sure the Cards can invest anymore multi millions of $$ in him.
What the answer is.....I dunno to be honest but it sure isnt Skelton or Lindley from what i've seen.

Whiz....I'm grateful for most of the superbowl memories (all but 2:37 of it) but really it was Warner that took the team there not Whiz.
Whiz has shown zero connection with the QB position. its all very well and good to treat all the positions the same and have the competition for all jobs open even at QB but QB play is based on confidence and Whizs history is littered with him undermining that confidence, Warner was the backup to lienart but Whiz kept taking him out to put in Warner for hurry up offence. undermining Leinarts confidence. Then when Lienart went down and Warner played lights out and saved the season, and obviously won the starting job Whiz announces Leinart the starter and makes Warner Lienart fight for it, eventually giving the job back to Warner, and so taking the starting job from his nominated starter, Leinart was finished then.
I could go on with the DA, max Hall Skelton fiasco but I cant be bothered.

suffice to say he did a Lienart on Kolb the same MO Kolb goes down Skelton gets some wins (but mostly played poorly) and a QB competition follows. Which is somehow won by Skelton.
he got lucky that Kolbs professionalism shone through and he played well after being undermined all the way through (Whiz did nothing to build Kolbs confidence and all he could to weaken it) When Skelton went down in week 1
Then injury struck again and in stepped Skelton who played like....well Skelton, it was as I had seen last year and was exactly the same this year inaccuracy a go go. BUT heres the kicker Skelton having a shocking start to the Atlanta game but with us UP by 13!! gets benched !! theres a confidence builder for you and also leaves you with no way back. If you go back to Skelton you say you were wrong and also destroy your rookies confidence in the process. But Whiz goes one further he says he will play the guy who offers the best chance to win so what happened to benching Lindley when he was clearly out of his league? was he our best chance to win....er nope but master mind Whiz has painted himself into a corner and either he eats humble pie now or we go with Lindley until/if Kolb comes back.

And in the process ****** off the entire defence.

as for Miller and Grimm should go...DAMN RIGHT!!! along with Whiz and Grave who put them in place. The buck rests squarely with Whiz for coaching position decisions based on what evidence did he base Millers continued role as OC and on what evidence keeps Grimm in a job ???
The time comes for all coaches its arrived for Whiz the window of opportunity is closing VERY fast for this team.
injuries do not excuse the performance we saw last night, I have never seen a worse offensive display by any team EVER!! but I see plenty of other teams suffer chronic injury situations but at least come out and look professional and ready to play.
A coaches job is to teach and motivate and make adjustments in game I saw zero of any of them last night.

Whiz continually says 'The system works!!' erm nope not unless you get lucky with a HOF QB being on your roster.
We have been nothing since Warner went and we were nothing before. Whiz had to put Warner in through injury, its not like Whiz came in and saw that Warner still had it in the tank he was forced into starting Warner.....

No, time for this team to start again im afraid under a new HC

Last edited by mrbyte11; 03.12.2012 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 03.12.2012, 07:39 PM
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I have to agree with what you say mrbyte. The QB is critical, and not only can whiz and co. not pick a good/suitable one out (I know this is hard), but his man management of the QB's he has is awful, it truly is. He has no idea which QB is best, he has no idea what changes he needs to make to the playbook, or even in game changes to get the best out of the QB.

Injuries are unfortunate, but its no excuse, its not like they are out of the blue injuries. Kolb and Wells can never stay healthy, why would that be any different this year? Williams has not been healthy since he arrived, why expect anything different, especially of such a major injury? Yes, the OL injuries a bit of a surprise, but its not like either were starting talent in their positions anyway. The injuries are something I could have foreseen at QB and RB, and so should the coach and made sure he was ready for it.

As far as I can see, he does not really know what to do, and its dragging on too long. He has had 3 years to show us something, a sign that he knows how to help this offense move on from Kurt Warner, but we have seen nothing, in fact we are regressing. Sometimes, things just need to change, this is the time. There is still potential for us to be good, I dont think we can afford another 3 years of mediocrity (at best).
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Old 03.12.2012, 09:42 PM
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Its Whizs man management that I really hate his only option is to strike out with fear.
I have already given my opinion on how he manages QBs (basically to make them think they have to fight for their job even when it damages their ability to play their role)

but its the same with RBs remember the Hightower Beanie year? the minute they fumbled they were benched and the other was put in. They were made to stand in the corner like some naughty school boy.

eventually this lead to both under performing because they knew if they fumbled they were benched. and so they didnt push or run with freedom of instinct.

I'm not saying fumbles are acceptable, but treating every one as a personal insult or intentional slight isn't very grown up...IMO and doesnt make for a good relationship

I could be wrong, I have zero evidence but i will bet when Whiz finally goes there will be a collective sigh of relief from the team and stories will come out.

The whole team is wound as tight as a watch spring.

Sometimes players need a little nurturing. not just a damn good thrashing
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