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  #16111  
Old 12.02.2019, 06:24 PM
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Flint was an abberation. What a mess. But the USA as a country does not have a serious dirty water problem. If it did, people would be dying from waterborne diseases.

In parts of the world with dirty water children die in swathes from Cholera, Dysentery, Typhoid.. you name it.

Lead is a problem the West has been grappling with for years. From lead crystal decanters to lead paint to leaded petrol.. and yes, lead pipes. It is gradually being phased out of everything. But it is an enormous job. The kind of job that can take a generation. Long term exposure to this once ubiquitous metal is not ideal but it pales beside the risks of genuinely dirty water.

Nor am I saying it isn't a political issue. The border wall is an issue too. But what people are concerned about and what they should justifiably be concerned about are not always the same thing.

its not just Flint though.
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  #16112  
Old 12.02.2019, 11:23 PM
Dj00ns Dj00ns is offline
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its not just Flint though.
Life expectancy in the US is appx 80. Not the best in the world, sure, their healthcare could be more sensitively distributed for a start. But it's right up there with other developed countries. The very best are 83-84.

This is a long way from places like Congo (65), Pakistan (66) and Ghana (63) where clean water is not readily available.

Infant mortality is a dead give away. In the USA it is appx 5.8 per 1000, which is not especially good for a Western country. But it is a far cry from dysentery wracked Congo (55), Pakistan (52) and Ghana (35).

Whatever the condition of the American water supply, it doesn't seem to be doing an awful lot of harm. Although life expectancy is dipping a little, due to... overdoses. Chiefly opiates.

There are over 70,000 overdose deaths in the USA now each year. More than twice as many deaths now as from firearms, and that is saying something! That is an astonishing number of squalid, violent and avoidable deaths.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-fentanyl-cdc
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  #16113  
Old 13.02.2019, 12:49 AM
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Life expectancy in the US is appx 80. Not the best in the world, sure, their healthcare could be more sensitively distributed for a start. But it's right up there with other developed countries. The very best are 83-84.

This is a long way from places like Congo (65), Pakistan (66) and Ghana (63) where clean water is not readily available.

Infant mortality is a dead give away. In the USA it is appx 5.8 per 1000, which is not especially good for a Western country. But it is a far cry from dysentery wracked Congo (55), Pakistan (52) and Ghana (35).

Whatever the condition of the American water supply, it doesn't seem to be doing an awful lot of harm. Although life expectancy is dipping a little, due to... overdoses. Chiefly opiates.

There are over 70,000 overdose deaths in the USA now each year. More than twice as many deaths now as from firearms, and that is saying something! That is an astonishing number of squalid, violent and avoidable deaths.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-fentanyl-cdc

tbh i'm not sure of your overall point, other places are worse but that doesnt mean its ok. it may not be creating instant deaths but it does have an impact and maybe overall they wont be felt to that number for while.
(people not being able to drink the water out of there tap is an issue.)


there healthcare system is beyond broken at this point the private nature of it has led to comical pricing and a double impact for getting a serious illness.



and yes that same nature of profit focused medicine has played a large role in those overdoses and it is a crisis too.



given its one of the most advanced nations there seems to be a real issue in solving these issues (guns included.)

Last edited by goodkarma84; 13.02.2019 at 12:54 AM.
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  #16114  
Old 14.02.2019, 01:16 PM
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tbh i'm not sure of your overall point, other places are worse but that doesnt mean its ok. it may not be creating instant deaths but it does have an impact and maybe overall they wont be felt to that number for while.
(people not being able to drink the water out of there tap is an issue.)
Isolated cases of any sort of extreme pollution are unfortunate and need to be addressed. However, they can be ridden to the wrong conclusions.

The overall point would be that drinking water quality is not a National crisis in the USA and it doesn't justify and may not benefit from a sweeping grand plan like the New Green Deal.

The problems with sweeping grand plans are (1) they are not thought through properly, frequently because they are a slave to some other purpose, such as scoring political points or to satisfy ideological need, and (2) the grand scale is simply not the best scale for everything.

Re-piping a country as large and developed as the USA would be a very grand scheme indeed. Not only is doing something like this in short order potentially much more expensive than over the long term, but the same money could potentially do a lot more good if directed at other subjects.

The estimated cost over the next decade of replacing ageing water and sewer pipes in the USA is $300bn.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/c...stic-lead.html

That is without the Green New Deal!

Obviously, if a pipe is leaking this work needs to be done. But replacing millions of miles of intact pipes is another matter.

There is also the issue of the unknown. When lead pipes were laid they were believed to be safe. Are plastic pipes safe? Are they safe in every soil type? Who knows?

Studies suggest that contaminants in soil can leach into plastic pipes as they age (same link). 30 years after re-piping the USA you could have a dozen Flints, with benzene or toluene instead of lead.

I guess I distrust these sweeping wide eyed schemes. "Let's just replace all the metal pipes in America with plastic!".

Groundnuts, the Garden Bridge, Millennium Dome, Olympic Stadiums time and time again.. grand, wasteful sinkholes of public money that benefit from way too much hope and way too little scrutiny.
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  #16115  
Old 14.02.2019, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj00ns View Post
Isolated cases of any sort of extreme pollution are unfortunate and need to be addressed. However, they can be ridden to the wrong conclusions.

The overall point would be that drinking water quality is not a National crisis in the USA and it doesn't justify and may not benefit from a sweeping grand plan like the New Green Deal.

The problems with sweeping grand plans are (1) they are not thought through properly, frequently because they are a slave to some other purpose, such as scoring political points or to satisfy ideological need, and (2) the grand scale is simply not the best scale for everything.

Re-piping a country as large and developed as the USA would be a very grand scheme indeed. Not only is doing something like this in short order potentially much more expensive than over the long term, but the same money could potentially do a lot more good if directed at other subjects.

The estimated cost over the next decade of replacing ageing water and sewer pipes in the USA is $300bn.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/c...stic-lead.html

That is without the Green New Deal!

Obviously, if a pipe is leaking this work needs to be done. But replacing millions of miles of intact pipes is another matter.

There is also the issue of the unknown. When lead pipes were laid they were believed to be safe. Are plastic pipes safe? Are they safe in every soil type? Who knows?

Studies suggest that contaminants in soil can leach into plastic pipes as they age (same link). 30 years after re-piping the USA you could have a dozen Flints, with benzene or toluene instead of lead.

I guess I distrust these sweeping wide eyed schemes. "Let's just replace all the metal pipes in America with plastic!".

Groundnuts, the Garden Bridge, Millennium Dome, Olympic Stadiums time and time again.. grand, wasteful sinkholes of public money that benefit from way too much hope and way too little scrutiny.

they should only replace the pipes in areas where the water is unsafe but thats a fair few places and the list will continue to grow.



i believe the overall plan is very much at a basic concept stage at this point too, rather than set in stone.



i dont think doing nothing is the answer either.
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  #16116  
Old 14.02.2019, 11:26 PM
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they should only replace the pipes in areas where the water is unsafe but thats a fair few places and the list will continue to grow.
The thing I find interesting about Flint is that it wasn't the pipes anyway. It was poor decision making by city and state officials. The pipes were not the problem. It was the water and specifically the inadequacies of the treatment plant that pie-eyed officials thought would save them money. The water source and treatment mix was not suitable for the pipes, and so they corroded.

This was a local grand scheme. An ill conceived, poorly implemented white elephant hope-over-judgement type of idea. "We'll just take the water from the river!"

What Flint really suffered from was an inadequate elected official.. a businessman who claimed his financial success and managerial experience qualified him to run a huge and complex public body.. but chiefly inadequate civil servants. Who should have known their jobs.

Bad government, basically.
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  #16117  
Old 15.02.2019, 10:07 PM
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in news that will shock no one, the cretin in the Oval Office decided to abuse he his position to fund his awful wall.

rather than doing the actual work to pass the needed bill.



so now a legal battle is likely to ensue, the law seems pretty clear on what an emergency is but of course because the Republicans cheated the supreme court is in there favour. of course those judges might want to think about setting that precedent when someone they dont like could use that power.






meanwhile in the world is parody mode Trump posted this







yeah that bloody school violence, really they need some school control.

Last edited by goodkarma84; 15.02.2019 at 10:20 PM.
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  #16118  
Old 18.02.2019, 08:31 AM
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i think this sums up the state of Brexit.
we could reverse course and MPs could make a reasoned decision to remain (as i have stated before they lack the backbone so the only hope is a second vote likely with an extension needed.)


or we can plow forward knowing that its going to be a disaster and pretending the 1st vote was super clear and by a large margin.






Last edited by goodkarma84; 18.02.2019 at 08:33 AM.
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  #16119  
Old 18.02.2019, 06:01 PM
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Major foreign investment can't leave quickly enough.


Honda now latest to leave

Add that to Flybmi, Nissan, Panasonic, Sony, Dyson, Ford, Jaguar Land Rover, Phillips, Hitachi, & Toshiba

Brexiteers taking the General Melchett from Blackadder view - "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
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  #16120  
Old 18.02.2019, 10:49 PM
Dj00ns Dj00ns is offline
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Major foreign investment can't leave quickly enough.

Honda now latest to leave

Add that to Flybmi, Nissan, Panasonic, Sony, Dyson, Ford, Jaguar Land Rover, Phillips, Hitachi, & Toshiba

Brexiteers taking the General Melchett from Blackadder view - "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
Yep.

£3bn of British exports seems to have just walked out of the door.

As local MP Justin Tomlinson - a leaver - said on 10th Jan..

"Honda are making preparations for any scenario, they remain committed to Swindon. As the Snr Vice President of Europe has reinforced; Swindon is crucial part of their entire global production network. I have worked closely with them and they fully support the PMs Brexit deal"

https://twitter.com/JustinTomlinson/...10541463437312

and what he says now..

"Honda are clear this is based on global trends and not Brexit, as all European market production will consolidate in Japan in 2021."

Er, all European market production? Honda has one factory in Europe that makes cars. This one.

Global trends that were not apparent only 5 weeks ago? A crucial part of their entire global production network. Apparently not so crucial now.

Well, notwithstanding anything more drastic, the next General Election is due in May 2022. That is shortly after 3,500 of Justins constituents will have got their P45's. Justins majority? 8,335. Good luck with that!
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