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  #101  
Old 23.10.2009, 12:12 AM
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I think Alan Davies made a good point really on This Week in Politics when he said it is not the BBC's place to police the political process and I agree with that, nobody should have the power to decide those things because ultimately they won votes, from foolish, narrow-minded people but votes nonetheless.

I do have concerns however about the BNP being on QT and it's the cache and notoriety they are garnering from all of this media attention. I think one thing that is being missed is that most of the people who would be inclined to vote BNP are not by nature the same people as those who watch QT in fact the stats show that the vast majority of their voters read the Sun and Star. Now that in-itself is up to the individual but people do not read those papers for the political commentary either. They read it for entertainment and another type of news. Many of those people who might have some sympathies would not vote for them because it is a taboo. I feel that while anyone watching QYT can see the guy is a tool I think any publicity is good publicity and I feel that there is less taboo attached with votes for a party who are in the public eye.

I would rather we just ignore them...like the lib dems
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  #102  
Old 23.10.2009, 10:06 AM
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It was a lynch mob on Griffin, he was interupted most of the time whilst trying to speak, but I think his earlier career opinions on things have already laid him to rest.

Some bloke at the front summed it, he said that people had only voted for BNP out of frustration and were neither racists nor fascists. I agree with that, many feel Labour has tried to bring about EU rule by stealth in regards to EU policies being introduced and the overwhelming number of ridiculous political correctness issues.

There won't be a need for a referendum when mass immigration, combined with already established EU laws and restriction on celebrating traditional christian British ways of life have eroded people of much self indentity anyway. An all powerful EU state is the long term goal of the ruling political elite and mass immigration is one tool in making this more a reality. In this future european countries will be a thing of the past, its already on the way with the EURO, open borders, trade laws and EU legislation.
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  #103  
Old 23.10.2009, 11:44 AM
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While I find Griffin and his cronies abhorrent, I do feel that last nights broadcast give him the ammunition to make himself out to be a martyr that was being bullied.Jack Straw did not help matters by dancing around certain questions, confirming peoples already dire opinions of the current Labour party.

Griffin has done a good job at hiding his true feelings to the mass majority of the mainstream, if people need any evidence just scour Youtube and you will find all sorts of far more offensive ramblings by him over the last few years.

The problem is the fact that Labour, and for that matter the other two mainstream parties have failed to engage in a sensible debate about immigration pushing people to extreme parties as they present themselves as ''the common man''. While there are issues that certainly need to be addressed and perhaps a more stringent system put in place, Griffin’s ''close the door'' policy is ridiculous. If that is the attitude people have then why should other countries let English/British workers seek employment/a new life abroad. Can you imagine the uproar if the Spanish and French governments decided to boot out all the Brits in the south of the respective nations? Also a large portion of institutions such as the NHS are made up of doctors and nurses from abroad, working because there is not enough of the so called ''indigenous'' population willing to fulfil these roles.

Mark - While I respect your opinions and agree with you that perhaps the country has become a little PC mad and the immigration issue does need tackling I also feel that the concept of ''British Identity'' being eroded by the EU is being exaggerated. I travel a lot round mainland Europe, and despite them being ingrained far more into the EU I never feel that they are losing there heritage, culture or anything that makes them unique as a nation. Perhaps it's the fact we are an island nation that makes us a little more reluctant to change and see our heritage being under threat more than others, and while there is an element of the PC brigade placing too many restrictions these are grossly exaggerated by certain tabloid newspapers looking for a cheap, easy sensationalistic story.

Overall while I certainly have sympathy for people who voice there concerns about increased immigration, but why not vote for UKIP? Why not harass your local conservative representative? Why vote for a party such as the BNP with such odious views, no matter how well they attempt to deceive. Griffin is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, his cries of helping our soldiers, jobs for the Brits etc is just a sham. It's not immigration he is wishing to solve it's his idea of utopia of an all white society. As a gentleman said on the program last night, perhaps he should go live in the colourless South Pole .
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  #104  
Old 23.10.2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by clarence worley View Post

Mark - While I respect your opinions and agree with you that perhaps the country has become a little PC mad and the immigration issue does need tackling I also feel that the concept of ''British Identity'' being eroded by the EU is being exaggerated. I travel a lot round mainland Europe, and despite them being ingrained far more into the EU I never feel that they are losing there heritage, culture or anything that makes them unique as a nation. Perhaps it's the fact we are an island nation that makes us a little more reluctant to change and see our heritage being under threat more than others, and while there is an element of the PC brigade placing too many restrictions these are grossly exaggerated by certain tabloid newspapers looking for a cheap, easy sensationalistic story.
I think it depends where you live or have been in Britain whether or not you think that 'British Identity' is being eroded, certain towns in the North West/East have radically changed in their identities or ethnic make ups.

I agree with what you said about a lot of people including British people that can offer a lot skills and experience, whether emmigrating or foreign nationals coming into Britain. I personally have looked into other countries and have found them to be quite strict on immigration and you need sponsors, employment in the bag and large sums of money to support yourself.

What I have a problem with is this country has let in many useless people with no skills or education who are just as much benefit scroungers as some of our lot. Its thanks to the Labour and its pathetic immigration control that we now have peasants from Eastern Europe begging on the streets in my town.

As for cultural differences in visiting abroad, the differences won't be much given another 20 years and the new European State that will eventually rule all of us.

Last edited by Mark_Duper; 23.10.2009 at 12:11 PM.
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  #105  
Old 23.10.2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_Duper View Post
I think it depends where you live or have been in Britain whether or not you think that 'British Identity' is being eroded, certain towns in the North West/East have radically changed in their identities or ethnic make ups.

I agree with what you said about a lot of people including British people that can offer a lot skills and experience, whether emmigrating or foreign nationals coming into Britain. I personally have looked into other countries and have found them to be quite strict on immigration and you need sponsors, employment in the bag and large sums of money to support yourself.

What I have a problem with is this country has let in many useless people with no skills or education who are just as much benefit scroungers as some of our lot. Its thanks to the Labour and its pathetic immigration control that we now have peasants from Eastern Europe begging on the streets in my town.

As for cultural differences in visiting abroad, the differences won't be much given another 20 years and the new European State that will eventually rule all of us.
I live in Leeds which is very culturally diverse, personally I don't see this as being ''eroded''. I feel that it actually adds to the city. British identity, however one choses to define this still exists, no one is forcing this underground, (here anyway) Christmas lights are being put up, flags outside the pubs for England football/rugby matches etc, etc.In fact if anything has eroded British identity over the years, it's the countries adoption of certain elements of the American lifestyle that have had more of a significant impact into our lifestyle/identity IMO. Not saying this is negative or positive, just something I feel has affected our lives more than our lifestyle being eroded by anything in Europe.

I think that many European's have a stronger sense of identity and individuality than Brits despite the fact they are more ingrained into the EU than ourselves, whether this is because of the fact they are more averse to America than ourselves or whether it's because we are an island nation and feel a bit more persecuted I don't know. But I certainly don't see the likes of France, Portugal , Germany, etc becoming one homogenous blob, visit these places all the time and I don't see anything about them losing there individuality and feel it's as strong now as it was five years ago. As you say in 20 years time it maybe the case, but call me a sceptic.

Certainly agree with the fact that there should be a more stringent system, when looking into peoples skills, and what they have to offer, there willingness to learn the language etc when considering applications regarding immigration. As you said there are immigrants taking advantage, begging etc but I also work with immigrants who are extremely hard working, who have brought there skills and contributed positively, that's the thing there are both positives and negatives to the situation and Griffin is intent on focusing on the latter to promote his backward agenda.

However like you say are country is blighted by ''our own'' taking advantage of a benefit system that is unfortunately being taken advantage of by unsavouries. The BNP seem to ignore the fact that our own are very capable of scamming and taking advantage of the system, which puts far more strain on society than immigration. Yes something needs to be done, but lets also look at ourselves when coming to terms of what is effecting Britain today. A great deal of complaints regarding immigration came to afore because of the recent recession. ''Johnny Foreigner'' became the easy scapegoat. Unecessary immigration was a factor but people somehow forgot about the fact that it may have been on their own heads as well as the banks, for spending beyond there means on credit cards, mortgages that were over there head etc.And this finally rolLs onto my biggest issue with the BNP, for all it's bluster about Islam and immigration I am far more concerned about the youth of our nation and there behaviour, the so called ASBO generation. I fear they are a much more troublesome element of 21st British life than ''evil johnny foreigner''. He was at it again last night banging on about his crackpot theories Islamic people traffickers and deviants. What about the recent arrests on nursery workers for child abuse?? Were they not ''indigenous'' Nick???? I honestly think the man is that warped that he thinks all negative wrong doings in this country are committed by anyone that's not white and British.
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  #106  
Old 23.10.2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_Duper View Post
I think it depends where you live or have been in Britain whether or not you think that 'British Identity' is being eroded, certain towns in the North West/East have radically changed in their identities or ethnic make ups.

I agree with what you said about a lot of people including British people that can offer a lot skills and experience, whether emmigrating or foreign nationals coming into Britain. I personally have looked into other countries and have found them to be quite strict on immigration and you need sponsors, employment in the bag and large sums of money to support yourself.

What I have a problem with is this country has let in many useless people with no skills or education who are just as much benefit scroungers as some of our lot. Its thanks to the Labour and its pathetic immigration control that we now have peasants from Eastern Europe begging on the streets in my town.

As for cultural differences in visiting abroad, the differences won't be much given another 20 years and the new European State that will eventually rule all of us.
I grew up in Barnsley in South Yorkshire, a town which in the October elections had the BNP second in local elections. It is also a town that had little to no ethnic diversity and on a national level it remains way below the national average. I detest the BNP and their repugnant philosophy but it came as no shock to me to see them win votes.

However, I totally disagree with your reasoning for them getting votes - it has nothing to do with erosion of national identity or immigration policy at all. In peoples minds I think they believe that is what is causing their frustration but in truth it is not. People live in a bubble of self denial and ignorance with many of the more complex political problems a view that is perpetuated buy the the establishment in the form of the Daily Mail, The Express and even elements of the Conservative Party. These people are in no way or means supporters of the far right BNP but they do engender a false sense of fear with the way they engage in discussions on issues such as immigration in the mainstream media. They all promote a false sense of fear and jealousy amongst the population by using it as an issue to peddle their own agendas.

The conservative Party know it is an issue in the minds of many and they use it as a way of taking the working class ground away from Labour by making periodic statements that we need to be tougher on issues such as Asylum seekers for example but they always fall short of actually making a outright policy on the matter for fear of losing votes. I am not in any way suggesting that the Conservatives are racist but it is a symptom of the power of general ignorance. The political parties are just as reactive as they are pro-active they go with the flow of consensus as you saw when Gordon Brown did a u-turn on the 10p Tax.

The Mail knows it's brand of controversial and borderline racist/homophobic and narrow-minded articles have a market amongst the people who are of the older generation and those whom are financially aspirational but not quite financially successful. Studies done by independent bodies have proved this to be the case (of course there is no one rule fits all but that is where the stats go). the Express taps into this too.

the effect this has is that it legitimises the anger people feel and everyone has a scapegoat. the stats show that immigration has been a massive boon for the economy but we focus heavily on every negative instance whereby a foreign worker exploits the system to their advantage. yet i grew up on a council estate where 75% of people were on benefits, receiving new cars and doing cash in hand work. the issue is education.

Moreover, there is more of an issue in the north of England because the area is still recovering from the closure of the major industries in the area and in a time of economic recession those areas do not have enough fall back to keep people in jobs. for a while call centres brought massive amounts of work into South Yorkshire but many left during the financial collapse. This is the breeding ground for anger and frustration and of course rightly so... but is the fault of immigration? no. It is the fault of a system that has failed to do enough to encourage business to invest in the north.

the BNP are a disgrace. The Daily Mail is even more of a disgrace because people actually believe that it is a serious newspaper.Yet, as a nation we can only look at ourselves if others are voting BNP because it means the government has not done their job. This is not only New Labour, who have messed up the economy but it harks back to Thatcher and the decisions to cut industry and not having a proper plan to replace it. It is about getting people in school learning about the REAL Islam and not the crap spouted by old fashioned and narrow minded idiots. I don't blame those who vote BNP I blame those who should know better but use people's fears to take advantage and secure power and or wealth for themselves.

BTW: I am not saying the Tories are any worse than Labour I think either party would exploit public sentiment if they were able to get in power off the back of it.

The BNP are total joke, Nick Griffin is not an intelligent man he should not be afforded a platform he should simply be ignored...

Last edited by olig23; 23.10.2009 at 03:26 PM.
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  #107  
Old 23.10.2009, 08:30 PM
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Olig,

You seem to assume I am either a Daily Mail reader, a far right tory boy or misguided individual living in a bubble or even a BNP sympathiser. You have some very contradictive points in that post, and that I think the opinions I have on immigration are not my own but in some way misled by media spin.

You said that the immigration concerns are in the minds of many and are exploited by Conservative. Well surely if something is in the minds of many then surely it is a problem that many are concerned with, umm yes.
I'm sorry but my agreement with the chap on QuestionTime about BNP getting frustration votes is based on my own opinion in speaking to people to whom I know or through friends of friends and socialising.

Maybe people in Barnsley although it not be quite as ethnically diverse as some northern towns as you said, are voting in the hopes of preventing such problems before they happen.

As for Conservatives trying to mislead people away from Labour and gain support by stirring up media spin, its not something Labour would not do or haven't in previous campaigns.

I stand by what I said to the other chap, I have no problem, not even with people from a strained political environment such as Iran coming here to work as long as they are qualified, can contribute and bring much needed skills and are well educated and civilised.

The problem is people cannot discuss properly immigration without being sided as a racist, and that is the fault of left wing Labour and its political correctness rubbish, you can't say this or that. You ask the people of Northern Ireland why they rounded up on Eastern Europe immigrants? Was it a rising crime rate, assaults and people getting prioritised benefits and housing. Oh no of course not they were just a bunch of racist thugs who acted like animals and despicably.

The only ones that need to emerge from their misguided bubbles of self ignorance are the ones living most likely in upper class predominately indigenous peoples, green belts.

For your information the last time I voted that was for Labour, yes me the tory boy, Daily Mail reading misguided individual.

Last edited by Mark_Duper; 23.10.2009 at 08:42 PM.
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  #108  
Old 23.10.2009, 09:00 PM
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It certainly wasnt a lynch mob, IMO

They asked him about some of his previous quotes, none of which he was able to explain in any clarity or depth.

How is this different to any PM Q's session?

If you have views, you need to be able to defend them when given your platform.

All I saw from Griffin was a defelction of everything he has ever said in the past, which is already on record on video and audio.

Immigration may be a problem in the north to some, but speaking as someone who has worked in the city, without some of the people coming over from india and china to help our financial sector out in these tough times , this country would be up a creek without a whatsit without them.

People need to look past immigration with the BNP, you guys do realise they would totally isolate most of our financial institutions from banks in Singapore and Hong Kong , purely on the basis of thier ideology.

All whilst everyone else in the finacial world leaps ahead.

To say it would be a disaster would be an understatement.

Complain all you want about immigration, but dont complain when your plasma screen costs 6 times as much as it does today, cos the BNP wont be able to get trade agreements with far east companies ( if they ever got into power)

Ask Joe Bloggs to make that plasma in Dagenham, and see how much it costs you as a consumer.

Oh nevermind, maybe your 75% VAT will pay for it.

Last edited by vann_mcelroy; 23.10.2009 at 09:07 PM.
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  #109  
Old 23.10.2009, 09:24 PM
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Excellent Debate/Call In on "Five Live" right now about it, with Stephen Nolan.
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  #110  
Old 23.10.2009, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_Duper View Post
Olig,

You seem to assume I am either a Daily Mail reader, a far right tory boy or misguided individual living in a bubble or even a BNP sympathiser. You have some very contradictive points in that post, and that I think the opinions I have on immigration are not my own but in some way misled by media spin.

You said that the immigration concerns are in the minds of many and are exploited by Conservative. Well surely if something is in the minds of many then surely it is a problem that many are concerned with, umm yes.
I'm sorry but my agreement with the chap on QuestionTime about BNP getting frustration votes is based on my own opinion in speaking to people to whom I know or through friends of friends and socialising.

Maybe people in Barnsley although it not be quite as ethnically diverse as some northern towns as you said, are voting in the hopes of preventing such problems before they happen.

As for Conservatives trying to mislead people away from Labour and gain support by stirring up media spin, its not something Labour would not do or haven't in previous campaigns.

I stand by what I said to the other chap, I have no problem, not even with people from a strained political environment such as Iran coming here to work as long as they are qualified, can contribute and bring much needed skills and are well educated and civilised.

The problem is people cannot discuss properly immigration without being sided as a racist, and that is the fault of left wing Labour and its political correctness rubbish, you can't say this or that. You ask the people of Northern Ireland why they rounded up on Eastern Europe immigrants? Was it a rising crime rate, assaults and people getting prioritised benefits and housing. Oh no of course not they were just a bunch of racist thugs who acted like animals and despicably.

The only ones that need to emerge from their misguided bubbles of self ignorance are the ones living most likely in upper class predominately indigenous peoples, green belts.

For your information the last time I voted that was for Labour, yes me the tory boy, Daily Mail reading misguided individual.
I apologise if you thought I was aiming that at you directly. that was certainly not my intention.

I was aiming my comments at the 1m BNP voters and the general sentiment of those who sympathise with their policies. I have made no assumptions of your own political leanings I simply observed the perspective you laid out. There is quite big leap from believing that immigration policies are incorrect to the sentiment I am referring to. I simply quoted you because you mentioned some of the buzz words associated with those and you referred to the feeling in the north something I think is worthwhile discussing. I think much of what you said is true in the sense that it is how people feel. I believe those that stray over to the BNP are those who are not being presented with all of the facts and that is driven by the conservative media at the expense of using the platform as medium for positive sentiment.

As far as immigration itself goes I feel it needs to be properly regulated like many other aspects of British society and in recent years those regulations have been somewhat lax. The government have begun taking positive steps towards correcting the issue and I think that is a good thing. Nevertheless, I see far, far more pressing issues facing Britain at the moment and I don't understand how it is such a big problem for so many people. In my opinion the inefficiencies in the NHS and the welfare system are huge priorities as is the money that is being mis-spent by schools and LEAs. I think there is real evidence to suggest that heightened immigration adds strain to the NHS but the converse side of this is that 90% of foreign workers come here and work their socks off. the percentage of slack and un-educated people from the UK is worryingly high and this where I believe we waste the vast majority of our time and effort.

However, papers like the Mail create a false sense of blame and foster a mentality of the stereotypical Brit who works hard etc, etc and they report any instance of a immigrant criminal or con artist. Yet on any given day here are thousands of these people doing the exact same things who were born in this country. It seems we focus all our attention on fixing a problem that is not our biggest failing, yes it is an issue but is it the biggest issue? I don't see how it can be this country was far worse off economically is years gone by ans there is no serious evidence that immigration has hurt this country any more than we have in the past.

Again, I am not saying you believe that, nor am I making any assumptions abut anyone's political persuasions it is my feeling about the general sentiments towards a controversial issue in Britain today.
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