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  #9771  
Old 19.06.2015, 10:03 AM
davidjones178@hotmail.co.uk
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Originally Posted by European Bob View Post
If you spoke 2 or more languages - even if they are both modern and similar - there's no way you could believe that human beings could perfectly translate anything, let alone a book that long, written in so many styles...
Yes, they can. That's just it. The belief comes first.

This is why no rational explanation, logical deduction or glaring contradiction will ever be enough. Ockhams Razor just does not apply.

A while back on this thread I pointed out that in the Bible Josephs father is variously identified as Jacob and Heli. A clear contradiction.

Csonka is prepared to believe anything except there is a contradiction. He will believe Joseph was adopted according to some ancient Levite rite (not specified in the Bible) or that Heli was his Father in Law. Anything in fact except the clearest, most straightforward and most obvious answer, i.e. that even one tiny passage is incorrect.

I saw a great documentary recently about James Randi. Fascinating watching him debunk Uri Geller, faith healing and esp. As he was being heckled by a studio audience this guy in the audience shouts at him "you have to believe first!".

In other words, first you choose to believe. You just believe. No evidence, no logic, nothing like that at all. Then everything else slots into place. You pivot intellectually around that point. Suddenly the faith healing makes perfect sense !

From this viewpoint if the Bible says two men were Josephs father then evidently it is correct and everything else is just a detail. If dinosaurs are at variance with the Bible then they are the thing that must be incorrect. Ditto evolution, other religions, everything else like that.

Of course you can do this for anything. I could "believe first" that Prince Charles is my Dad. As long as I cling to that as the only concrete fact in the world, nothing you can say or do can convince me otherwise. It's all mutable. Your dna test is flawed. Perhaps dna science itself is a conspiracy. My mother is a liar. Family photographs have been faked. My own memories have been falsely implanted by hypnosis.

You can't win.

The mistake of course is to "believe first". It is by definition illogical, irrational and intellectually indefensible. It is in itself an act of childlike gullibility.

The rest is just symptomatic.
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  #9772  
Old 19.06.2015, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by davidjones178@hotmail.co.uk View Post
Yes, they can. That's just it. The belief comes first.

This is why no rational explanation, logical deduction or glaring contradiction will ever be enough. Ockhams Razor just does not apply.

A while back on this thread I pointed out that in the Bible Josephs father is variously identified as Jacob and Heli. A clear contradiction.

Csonka is prepared to believe anything except there is a contradiction. He will believe Joseph was adopted according to some ancient Levite rite (not specified in the Bible) or that Heli was his Father in Law. Anything in fact except the clearest, most straightforward and most obvious answer, i.e. that even one tiny passage is incorrect.

I saw a great documentary recently about James Randi. Fascinating watching him debunk Uri Geller, faith healing and esp. As he was being heckled by a studio audience this guy in the audience shouts at him "you have to believe first!".

In other words, first you choose to believe. You just believe. No evidence, no logic, nothing like that at all. Then everything else slots into place. You pivot intellectually around that point. Suddenly the faith healing makes perfect sense !

From this viewpoint if the Bible says two men were Josephs father then evidently it is correct and everything else is just a detail. If dinosaurs are at variance with the Bible then they are the thing that must be incorrect. Ditto evolution, other religions, everything else like that.

Of course you can do this for anything. I could "believe first" that Prince Charles is my Dad. As long as I cling to that as the only concrete fact in the world, nothing you can say or do can convince me otherwise. It's all mutable. Your dna test is flawed. Perhaps dna science itself is a conspiracy. My mother is a liar. Family photographs have been faked. My own memories have been falsely implanted by hypnosis.

You can't win.

The mistake of course is to "believe first". It is by definition illogical, irrational and intellectually indefensible. It is in itself an act of childlike gullibility.

The rest is just symptomatic.
Good points. I'll file religious enthusiasts next to drunks, kids and dogs in my 'things to avoid' box - all there because you can't reason with them!
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  #9773  
Old 19.06.2015, 11:40 AM
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Csonka - off-topic for a second but congrats on the GOAT status, just noticed it. You probably should thank God actually because without this thread you'd probably be some way shy of no1.
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  #9774  
Old 19.06.2015, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by European Bob View Post
Csonka - off-topic for a second but congrats on the GOAT status, just noticed it. You probably should thank God actually because without this thread you'd probably be some way shy of no1.
Thank you - still a way to go for the #1 spot though .. currently held by Razors Edge.. a Patriot fan.. how ironic..
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  #9775  
Old 19.06.2015, 12:58 PM
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GiantMackem GiantMackem is offline
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Not sure whether we have any people of the Muslim faith on here, but Happy Ramadan regardless.
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  #9776  
Old 19.06.2015, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Csonka#39 View Post
Thank you - still a way to go for the #1 spot though .. currently held by Razors Edge.. a Patriot fan.. how ironic..
Albeit a pats fan who no longer posts, went off in a huff and as far as I know never returned. You are the highest posting current and active member
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  #9777  
Old 19.06.2015, 01:30 PM
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Albeit a pats fan who no longer posts, went off in a huff and as far as I know never returned. You are the highest posting current and active member
Oh well then ... in that case PAAARRRTTTAAAYYYYY.. ha ha ha
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  #9778  
Old 19.06.2015, 04:26 PM
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Around 5 posts a day, every day, for 9 years?!?

Man that is dogged determination. We should all just stop arguing about the God thing; you'll win by dint of still posting long after the rest of us have gone!
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  #9779  
Old 19.06.2015, 06:38 PM
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Oh well then ... in that case PAAARRRTTTAAAYYYYY.. ha ha ha

"Blessed are they who post a lot!"
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  #9780  
Old 19.06.2015, 07:03 PM
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Have to say I didn't notice either he had become a forum GOAT and there are so many jokes you could use in this situation etc but in all honesty I imigine its all down to his wife who must insist he comes on here every day so she can get some peace and quiet
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